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August 17th, 2019, 06:48 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
If you think a musical or direct comparison with MJ was being made, then you've missed the point.... again! Additionally, for one who doesn't mind a dislike for Jorge, you do write a lot against it.
I am a Jorge fan, which I would have thought was fairly clear. You keep expressing your dislike for him, which as with Stoner and the Rossi fans I actually enjoy. I have not defended his personality, my point is single, that as an all-time great rider it is illegitimate to characterise him as a faller/crasher. I would do the same and if I recall have done the same recently if someone brought up the old Crashey Stoner thing again, to which I didn’t object when he was actually crashing as a 250 and 990 rider. He subsequently demonstrated he could ride a perfect season twice, as Jorge has pretty much also demonstrated he can do, which Dovi has never done and more than likely will never do.

Pray tell, what is your point in comparing Jorge with MIchael Jackson btw ?. Jorge has never had to pay off any families to cover his “personality flaws” as far as I am aware. I saw Jackson as a harmless eccentric before various revelations myself, and did rate the stuff with Quincy Jones and even more so the best Jackson 5 stuff.

Last edited by michaelm; August 17th, 2019 at 06:52 AM.
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August 17th, 2019, 06:57 AM   #72
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Nobody compared Lorenzo to Jackson. I was simply illustrating a dynamic. I never downplayed his talent either. You are way over analyzing what was broad humor, a throwaway joke, banter; a thing as I recall the late great Rog, blessed be his name.
Now you condescend, which I have not done to you previously in this discussion.

I begin to see Roger’s point of view. Perhaps ironically my fall out with him was on a similar point of logic, or illogic as the case may be.
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August 17th, 2019, 11:32 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am a Jorge fan, which I would have thought was fairly clear. You keep expressing your dislike for him, which as with Stoner and the Rossi fans I actually enjoy. I have not defended his personality, my point is single, that as an all-time great rider it is illegitimate to characterise him as a faller/crasher. I would do the same and if I recall have done the same recently if someone brought up the old Crashey Stoner thing again, to which I didn’t object when he was actually crashing as a 250 and 990 rider. He subsequently demonstrated he could ride a perfect season twice, as Jorge has pretty much also demonstrated he can do, which Dovi has never done and more than likely will never do.

Pray tell, what is your point in comparing Jorge with MIchael Jackson btw ?. Jorge has never had to pay off any families to cover his “personality flaws” as far as I am aware. I saw Jackson as a harmless eccentric before various revelations myself, and did rate the stuff with Quincy Jones and even more so the best Jackson 5 stuff.
I would say that your point is not single as you say since we've responded to each other's messages on several counts and yet, I've never once claimed Jorge to be a faller/crasher. I've repeatedly said that I don't doubt his abilities on a bike, his valor and also his clean conduct on-track. However, here we are, though you say you have no problem with anything negative said about him from a personality standpoint?

I don't dislike Lorenzo. I dislike a particular aspect of the guy. No one is perfect... right??? I know you're a fan, but gee man!
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August 17th, 2019, 02:00 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Nobody compared Lorenzo to Jackson. I was simply illustrating a dynamic. I never downplayed his talent either. You are way over analyzing what was broad humor, a throwaway joke, banter; a thing much employed as I recall by the late great Rog, blessed be his name.
OK Yoko, now you’ve done it. As the culprit responsible for the beak up of The Fab Four, you can expect to be dunned for having the gall to mention the name of Roger. May your tongue turn black and fall out.
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Last edited by Little Walter; August 17th, 2019 at 02:20 PM.
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August 17th, 2019, 02:17 PM   #75
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Now you condescend, which I have not done to you previously in this discussion.

I begin to see Roger’s point of view. Perhaps ironically my fall out with him was on a similar point of logic, or illogic as the case may be.
If you feel I’ve condescended then I apologize without reserve. I may disagree with you - but I never want to disrespect you. I was just pointing out that Rog with great frequency was a loose canyon with passionately emphasized dislikes but rarely held up to a magnifying glass and dissected over his various antipathies.

Last edited by Keshav; August 18th, 2019 at 03:37 AM.
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August 17th, 2019, 09:03 PM   #76
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I would say that your point is not single as you say since we've responded to each other's messages on several counts and yet, I've never once claimed Jorge to be a faller/crasher. I've repeatedly said that I don't doubt his abilities on a bike, his valor and also his clean conduct on-track. However, here we are, though you say you have no problem with anything negative said about him from a personality standpoint?

I don't dislike Lorenzo. I dislike a particular aspect of the guy. No one is perfect... right??? I know you're a fan, but gee man!
Where the argument started was with Keshav characterising him as a faller/crasher, to which I did and do object. If you don’t share that view then I have no argument with you on that point, and you will have to forgive me for drawing the implication that you were supporting all of Kesh’s arguments.

It certainly wasn’t me who likened Jorge to Michael Jackson personality-wise, so that leaves you and Kesh; I believe Kesh brought it up but you said you considered it apt, but had refrained from supporting the comparison because you considered it likely I would find it objectionable, with the implication that such objection would be unreasonable. I have repeatedly said, I don’t require you to like Jorge. If you want to compare him to someone talented but irascible like Carl Fogarty, Matt Mladin or perhaps Doohan (who was the better rider imo and probably the opinion of most) fine. Mladin is perhaps the best comparison for those with your opinion of Jorge; I believe the usually reserved Ben Spies was wont to refer to him as “that motherfucker”. It is hardly unreasonable for me to object to him being compared with someone who had to pay off multiple families to cover his bizarre personal foibles.

Last edited by michaelm; August 18th, 2019 at 12:36 AM.
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August 18th, 2019, 01:01 AM   #77
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August 18th, 2019, 03:39 AM   #78
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August 18th, 2019, 03:51 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Where the argument started was with Keshav characterising him as a faller/crasher, to which I did and do object. If you don’t share that view then I have no argument with you on that point, and you will have to forgive me for drawing the implication that you were supporting all of Kesh’s arguments.

It certainly wasn’t me who likened Jorge to Michael Jackson personality-wise, so that leaves you and Kesh; I believe Kesh brought it up but you said you considered it apt, but had refrained from supporting the comparison because you considered it likely I would find it objectionable, with the implication that such objection would be unreasonable. I have repeatedly said, I don’t require you to like Jorge. If you want to compare him to someone talented but irascible like Carl Fogarty, Matt Mladin or perhaps Doohan (who was the better rider imo and probably the opinion of most) fine. Mladin is perhaps the best comparison for those with your opinion of Jorge; I believe the usually reserved Ben Spies was wont to refer to him as “that motherfucker”. It is hardly unreasonable for me to object to him being compared with someone who had to pay off multiple families to cover his bizarre personal foibles.
Mike - I have to call it quits on this topic. Why you repeatedly ignore my clarifications and mischaracterise and misinterpret the inferences despite my clearly spelling them out for you I won’t speculate on.

Last edited by Keshav; August 18th, 2019 at 06:04 AM.
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August 19th, 2019, 01:58 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Mike - I have to call it quits on this topic. Why you repeatedly ignore my clarifications and mischaracterise and misinterpret the inferences despite my clearly spelling them out for you I won’t speculate on.
I am over the argument as well, and pretty much over the forum like many before me.

It would seem we are back, in the 12th season after the 2007 season. to riders having unappealing personalities whatever their quality as actual riders. I doubtless have many faults, but logical inconsistency is not prominent among them.
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