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August 14th, 2019, 08:19 AM   #41
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Not to be just on contradiction auto-pilot, but that may say a lot more about Stoner than it does about Lorenzo. I always thought of Stoner as the nicest guy in the paddock. I'd like to think of myself as the guy who would reach out to even my worst enemy when they're laid low; so I can very much relate to that kind of humanistic impulse.

Who knows Lorenzo better than his fellow racers? There must be some reason why nobody else reached out to him in that traumatic time.
Not to follow up on the contradictions but let me know the last and next time someone goes to see a fellow injured rider without being the culprit of that injury.

Especially opposite teams and different nationalities.
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August 14th, 2019, 08:22 AM   #42
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Not to be just on contradiction auto-pilot, but that may say a lot more about Stoner than it does about Lorenzo. I always thought of Stoner as the nicest guy in the paddock. I'd like to think of myself as the guy who would reach out to even my worst enemy when they're laid low; so I can very much relate to that kind of humanistic impulse.

Who knows Lorenzo better than his fellow racers? There must be some reason why nobody else reached out to him in that traumatic time.
In which case you should take note of Stonerís continuing deep respect for Jorge which doesnít seem to extend to Dovi greatly. 2011 is when I came to respect Jorge and possibly when Stoner did as well. Against peak fully focused Stoner on a very good Honda he fought to defend his title to the last inch, doing his finger in pushing to find something extra in practice as I recall although his cause was pretty close to hopeless. I am still amazed as a physician how he completed a motogp race with a newly plated fractured clavicle; Colin Edwards was correctly called superhuman for riding the next week-end after a similar injury. Jorge has also like MM had to put up with the Valeban, except he was on the same team as their glorious leader when that guy was at his peak for manipulation and vindictiveness.

Again, I give great credit to Dovi for those great wins over MM and finally showing what he has presumably always had, but I donít recall paeans of praise from you for Dani Pedrosa and denigration of Dovi for not matching up to him when both were riding for HRC, and he has won twice as many races as Dovi, finished 2nd in the title more times and totally smoked all of the great recent riders including MM and left them with no answers on more than one of those week-ends when he really had it all going.

Last edited by michaelm; August 14th, 2019 at 08:51 AM.
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August 14th, 2019, 11:22 AM   #43
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Not to follow up on the contradictions but let me know the last and next time someone goes to see a fellow injured rider without being the culprit of that injury.

Especially opposite teams and different nationalities.
Okay. I'll keep you on speed dial.
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August 14th, 2019, 11:52 AM   #44
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In which case you should take note of Stoner’s continuing deep respect for Jorge which doesn’t seem to extend to Dovi greatly. 2011 is when I came to respect Jorge and possibly when Stoner did as well. Against peak fully focused Stoner on a very good Honda he fought to defend his title to the last inch, doing his finger in pushing to find something extra in practice as I recall although his cause was pretty close to hopeless. I am still amazed as a physician how he completed a motogp race with a newly plated fractured clavicle; Colin Edwards was correctly called superhuman for riding the next week-end after a similar injury. Jorge has also like MM had to put up with the Valeban, except he was on the same team as their glorious leader when that guy was at his peak for manipulation and vindictiveness.

Again, I give great credit to Dovi for those great wins over MM and finally showing what he has presumably always had, but I don’t recall paeans of praise from you for Dani Pedrosa and denigration of Dovi for not matching up to him when both were riding for HRC, and he has won twice as many races as Dovi, finished 2nd in the title more times and totally smoked all of the great recent riders including MM and left them with no answers on more than one of those week-ends when he really had it all going.

It's not about the numbers. Never was. I've had good things to say about Dani (who I met at Assen last year and was pleased to see that he was even able to take a second in the middle of a busy day) tho it's true I was pissed after the 2006 incident w Nicky. I think however I was a pretty early-on adopter of the move to forgive and forget.

What I found attractive about Dovi was the same as with 2005 - 2007 era Stoner, that being the whole underdog thing.

While there's no doubt that Pedrosa was a greater talent, he was right from the start of his Motogp career spoon fed the best equipment and lacked for nothing with fullest support. I never believed that Dovi got that full support from the Spanish-centric Repsol, anymore than Nicky did. I don't support the "there are no coincidences" thinking, but there sure was a fair amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Dovi's bikes getting the wick turned down at races where Dani was there, and the sudden increase in Dovi's performance whenever Dani was having one of his numerous surgeries.

There are a lot of folks who place a value on toughness for the sake of toughness. I'm not one of those people. So I don't see that in itself as increasing Lorenzo's worth. All that neanderthal machismo stuff means nothing to me.

There are a lot of folks who seem to feel if the rider has had great results that he should be allowed extra slack in his personal dealings. I don't subscribe to that either. I'm of the school that believes with greater recognition and it's attendant power and privilege requires a higher standard for how one behaves in the public forum.

I would say also that back in the day when there were a number of absolutely RABID Stoner haters here, I couldn't have cared less whether people felt that way. True I was always quick to post when I saw that people were positing bullshit reasons to justify their ridiculous over-the-top hate speech. But I was never invested in the vain belief that I could change their mind, that being such a rarity around these parts. If someone simply said, The guy just rubs me the wrong way, well then fuck it, can't argue with that. Trying to change who people do or don’t like is like trying to effect a religious conversion. Happens, but not often.

Last edited by Keshav; August 14th, 2019 at 06:52 PM.
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August 14th, 2019, 12:40 PM   #45
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I'm sort of with Keshav and say so since I don't wish to put words in his mouth. I personally don't hate any of the riders and after attending a couple races, I can't help but have loads of respect for all of them and their abilities. However, what makes experiencing them complete for me, are their personas/attitudes both on and off track.

Jorge is one of those that I've not taken to at a personal level. I'm not so sure that I buy into the complete separation of their attitudes/persona in and out of the public eye. It's not like they each suddenly lose control in the public eye. We simply get to see another facet of their personalities. On track and after incidents we see how they behave in the spur of the moment. We see how they each behave when upset etc. I personally find these sort of things more telling of the personality of the individual, i.e., how they conduct themselves as professionals rather than in a social setting which is more relaxed. Additionally, there's no doubt that we all put on our masks in social settings pretty much as we do professionally.

Again, I'll never doubt Jorge's mettle and valor as a rider. However, he does frequently leave me wanting to see better in how he conducts himself under stressful situations or in rivalries. I know that Casey respected Jorge and said as such in his biography; his reason being that Jorge was direct and always said what he meant without playing games. Of course, this was said to contrast his opinion about VR.
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August 14th, 2019, 01:19 PM   #46
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Miller renewed with Pramac for 2020.

https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/...or-2020/305102

I think Jorge will stay right where he is with Honda. I'm more curious as to where Zarco will go, most MotoGP seats are secured for 2020.
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August 14th, 2019, 01:22 PM   #47
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Miller renewed with Pramac for 2020.

https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/...or-2020/305102

I think Jorge will stay right where he is with Honda. I'm more curious as to where Zarco will go, most MotoGP seats are secured for 2020.
Good on him.
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August 14th, 2019, 06:18 PM   #48
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I'm sort of with Keshav and say so since I don't wish to put words in his mouth. I personally don't hate any of the riders and after attending a couple races, I can't help but have loads of respect for all of them and their abilities. However, what makes experiencing them complete for me, are their personas/attitudes both on and off track.

Jorge is one of those that I've not taken to at a personal level. I'm not so sure that I buy into the complete separation of their attitudes/persona in and out of the public eye. It's not like they each suddenly lose control in the public eye. We simply get to see another facet of their personalities. On track and after incidents we see how they behave in the spur of the moment. We see how they each behave when upset etc. I personally find these sort of things more telling of the personality of the individual, i.e., how they conduct themselves as professionals rather than in a social setting which is more relaxed. Additionally, there's no doubt that we all put on our masks in social settings pretty much as we do professionally.

Again, I'll never doubt Jorge's mettle and valor as a rider. However, he does frequently leave me wanting to see better in how he conducts himself under stressful situations or in rivalries. I know that Casey respected Jorge and said as such in his biography; his reason being that Jorge was direct and always said what he meant without playing games. Of course, this was said to contrast his opinion about VR.
Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion and neither I nor I presume anyone else compels anyone to like Jorge.

He is a great rider however, and would seem rather likely to be rated well ahead of Dovi when both have completed their careers, and I greatly respect his competitiveness and toughness, and took some exception to him being scoffed at for falling off the current Honda, something pretty much everyone does/has done, including Crutchlow, Miller and even MM himself.

Kesh, you and everyone else can call him a prick all you like with no complaint from me.

Last edited by michaelm; August 14th, 2019 at 06:48 PM.
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August 14th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
It's not about the numbers. Never was. I've had good things to say about Dani (who I met at Assen last year and was pleased to see that he was even able to take a second in the middle of a busy day) tho it's true I was pissed after the 2006 incident w Nicky. I think however I was a pretty early-on adapter of the move to forgive and forget.

What I found attractive about Dovi was the same as with 2005 - 2007 era Stoner, that being the whole underdog thing.

While there's no doubt that Pedrosa was a greater talent, he was right from the start of his Motogp career spoon fed the best equipment and lacked for nothing with fullest support. I never believed that Dovi got that full support from the Spanish-centric Repsol, anymore than Nicky did. I don't support the "there are no coincidences" thinking, but there sure was a fair amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Dovi's bikes getting the wick turned down at races where Dani was there, and the sudden increase in Dovi's performance whenever Dani was having one of his numerous surgeries.

There are a lot of folks who place a value on toughness for the sake of toughness. I'm not one of those people. So I don't see that in itself as increasing Lorenzo's worth. All that neanderthal machismo stuff means nothing to me.

There are a lot of folks who seem to feel if the rider has had great results that he should be allowed extra slack in his personal dealings. I don't subscribe to that either. I'm of the school that believes with greater recognition and it's attendant power and privilege requires a higher standard for how one behaves in the public forum.

I would say also that back in the day when there were a number of absolutely RABID Stoner haters here, I couldn't have cared less whether people felt that way. True I was always quick to post when I saw that people were positing bullshit reasons to justify their ridiculous over-the-top hate speech. But I was never invested in the vain belief that I could change their mind, that being such a rarity around these parts. If someone simply said, The guy just rubs me the wrong way, well then fuck it, can't argue with that. Trying to change who people do or don’t like is like trying to effect a religious conversion. Happens, but not often.
Sure, I think there are ample reasons to suspect Pedrosa was favoured by Repsol (the operative word) Honda particularly early on over Nicky with their pocket bike designed for Dani (or him selected to fit with that bike/the then Honda engineering philosophy) in the wings but Dovi was rather later in proceedings and I am sure by 2010 Honda would have taken a title any way they could get one; going out to get Stoner hardly suggests Dani remained their golden haired boy. Dovi always had good equipment, but sure being a late career bloomer is a great narrative and all praise to him for sticking with it and getting where he is now as I have said. You can hardly talk about his team-mates and them being favoured over him in the context of Jorge given the identity of Jorge’s teammate for much of his career, and the fact is that whatever the origin of the situation Jorge’s tenure at Ducati coincided with the bike becoming very competitive, actually fairly close to unbeatable in Jorge’s hands for his Ducati wins, after Dovi himself had been rather mediocre in his first 18 months on a Ducati or rather longer, so much so that it was widely reported that Gigi considered Dovi and crazy Joe to be not demonstrating the potential of his bike, the latter requiring Stoner’s services as a test rider.

Last edited by michaelm; August 14th, 2019 at 06:46 PM.
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August 14th, 2019, 06:45 PM   #50
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Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinion and neither I nor I presume anyone else compels anyone to like Jorge.

He is a great rider however, and would seem rather likely to be rated well ahead of Dovi when both have completed their careers, and I greatly respect his competitiveness and toughness, and took some exception to him being scoffed at for falling of the current Honda, something pretty much everyone does/has done, including Crutchlow, Miller and even MM himself.

Kesh, you and everyone else can call him a prick all you like with no complaint from me.


I have always had huge respect for his achievements and ability on a bike, he seems a bit odd but everyones different i guess and I don't know him to be able to judge so i don't. Nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him though, just look at his book cover and tell me he isn't asking for it (hilarious shit). I'm a Miller fan and there is nothing wrong with taking the piss out of him for needing subtitles in the European rounds because he speaks heavy spanglish in interviews.

It's just light hearted fun, there is enough PC bullshit going on in the world and I'm fucking sick of it.
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