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August 9th, 2019, 03:10 AM   #81
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I wouldn't say Jorge surpassed Dovi at Ducati but when Jorge was having a good weekend on the Ducati and had it dialled in he did seem to be able to dominate the race more so than Dovi could. Maybe Ducati see Jorges potential in that aspect and think he could better take the fight to Marc than Dovi could??

If you put Dovi and Petrucci on the Honda I don't think they would be able to beat Marc but if you put Marc on the Ducati I feel he could beat both of them... Ducati's battle is not with Honda but with Marc (Jorge shows that), the Ducati would have to be an unbelievably better bike than whatever Marc is riding to even give them a chance of winning a title against him. With control tyres, standardised electronics and software the performance gap between different bikes is getting smaller and harder to achieve (wings, wheel covers, brake diffusers, holeshot devices still isn't enough) the chances of them being able to build a bike thats head and shoulders above whatever Marc is riding is slim to none.

If Ducati want a championship they need a rider of Marc's calibre which I don't think there currently is in the MotoGP field...Maybe they think Jorge has a better chance of being able to do that than Dovi or Petrux. I think their best chance of clinching a championship would be to approach Marc with an open chequebook.
I reckon the operative word here is dominate. The sense of the rider having absolute confidence the way world champions are known to have. And I have to say that is not something that Dovi exudes. He seems more like a guy who almost wins in spite of his perceived shortcomings. Tho - I will say that Hayden never really demonstrated that quality either. He was such a boy scout. Fans of the sport are really attracted to that quality; evidenced by the long time reverence for Schwantz who only ever won that single championship. Dovi's style or modus seems to be more calculated in the way that he doesn't put a lot of energy into quali and saves his tires, harrying the lead rider, toting up Marquez's minor "weak spots" till towards the end of the race.

Actually . . . I think Ducati's battle is with Ducati; their inability to make the bike turn. If they hire Marc they'll get that championship, but that makes for the same paradigm as with Stoner - a very expensive band-aid that obscures the bike's defect which never gets properly addressed.

Last edited by Keshav; August 9th, 2019 at 03:13 AM.
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August 9th, 2019, 03:31 AM   #82
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I reckon the operative word here is dominate. The sense of the rider having absolute confidence the way world champions are known to have. And I have to say that is not something that Dovi exudes. He seems more like a guy who almost wins in spite of his perceived shortcomings. Tho - I will say that Hayden never really demonstrated that quality either. He was such a boy scout. Fans of the sport are really attracted to that quality; evidenced by the long time reverence for Schwantz who only ever won that single championship. Dovi's style or modus seems to be more calculated in the way that he doesn't put a lot of energy into quali and saves his tires, harrying the lead rider, toting up Marquez's minor "weak spots" till towards the end of the race.

Actually . . . I think Ducati's battle is with Ducati; their inability to make the bike turn. If they hire Marc they'll get that championship, but that makes for the same paradigm as with Stoner - a very expensive band-aid that obscures the bike's defect which never gets properly addressed.
Without wanting to get into cod psychology I have had the thought that you and Jumkie (when he was still here) saw Dovi somewhat as the new Nicky.

You underestimate Nicky imo. He was a great superbike rider, and in 2006 imo competing in a motogp formula which suited him really got it together against one of the most competitive fields in premier class gp bike racing history and rode a great consistent season which HRC’s less than full support and even a Pedrosa torpedo could not derail.

Last edited by michaelm; August 9th, 2019 at 05:26 PM.
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August 9th, 2019, 05:29 AM   #83
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No psychology here. Just observation of the way riders express themselves in interviews and corresponding traits playing out in their race-craft. You don’t have to be Freud to discern which riders exude confidence.
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August 9th, 2019, 05:37 AM   #84
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Why some of you assume Marc would dominate on another bike? His current style suits the RCV, not a longer wheelbase bike like the Ducati and Yamaha. Could he adapt his style to any bike? Maybe, but that's something he would need to prove that he's capable of. He could struggle worse on the Ducati than Lorenzo initially did for all we know.
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August 9th, 2019, 06:35 AM   #85
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His current style suits the RCV
Marques has style? How do you know that? Greatest riders don't have style restriction, they ride every bike as it needs to be ridden.
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August 9th, 2019, 06:43 AM   #86
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Marques has style? How do you know that? Greatest riders don't have style restriction, they ride every bike as it needs to be ridden.
Of course he has a style, they all have a style. We don't know how well Marc will adapt to a different bike, nothing he does on the RCV proves he would be just as fast on a Ducati or Yamaha. The way he can feel the limit of the front tire on the RCV probably wouldn't transfer exactly the same on another bike.

I would like to see Marc ride a different bike and showcase his ability to adapt his style (if he can) to a bike that has to be ridden a different way.
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August 9th, 2019, 06:49 AM   #87
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Why some of you assume Marc would dominate on another bike? His current style suits the RCV, not a longer wheelbase bike like the Ducati and Yamaha. Could he adapt his style to any bike? Maybe, but that's something he would need to prove that he's capable of. He could struggle worse on the Ducati than Lorenzo initially did for all we know.
Remember when Nicky announced his moving to Ducati and everybody was all "Oooh Nicky's a dirt track, slidin' around guy; he'll kick ass on the Duc". And of course never happened. But then Nicky was no Stoner.

2005 Stoner, who did as well as anyone could hope for on mis-matched Michelin left-overs with no power to decide on which tires he wanted, while on the Honda - blew everybody's mind on the Ducati, winning convincingly, in a way that no other previous Ducati rider had; so a pretty strong indication he'd blow everybody away on the HRC bike. And he did.

Marquez (despite the hugely antipathetic fan consensus here at the time) during his time in Moto 2 was clearly a phenom truly walking away from a field of equal bikes like it was a stroll in the park. Even so his first year domination was pretty shocking. But after all this time, the evidence of his mastery is impossible to miss. When you watch the way he does saves on a regular basis - you can't help but know, this is a guy who adapts, and does it on-the-fly. He'd make good use of the Ducati power, and stability under braking, no problem. I can't imagine who you think is better, tho if I had to hazard a guess . . .
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August 9th, 2019, 06:54 AM   #88
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Remember when Nicky announced his moving to Ducati and everybody was all "Oooh Nicky's a dirt track, slidin' around guy; he'll kick ass on the Duc". And of course never happened. But then Nicky was no Stoner.

2005 Stoner, who did as well as anyone could hope for on mis-matched Michelin left-overs with no power to decide on which tires he wanted, while on the Honda - blew everybody's mind on the Ducati, winning convincingly, in a way that no other previous Ducati rider had; so a pretty strong indication he'd blow everybody away on the HRC bike. And he did.

Marquez (despite the hugely antipathetic fan consensus here at the time) during his time in Moto 2 was clearly a phenom truly walking away from a field of equal bikes like it was a stroll in the park. Even so his first year domination was pretty shocking. But after all this time, the evidence of his mastery is impossible to miss. When you watch the way he does saves on a regular basis - you can't help but know, this is a guy who adapts, and does it on-the-fly. He'd make good use of the Ducati power, and stability under braking, no problem. I can't imagine who you think is better, tho if I had to hazard a guess . . .
Marc is able to make those saves and push to the limit and beyond because of the feedback he's getting from the RCV and the overall balance of the bike (combined with the electronics). A different bike will provide different levels of feedback (probably less than he's currently used to) and he would need to demonstrate that he's able to overcome the differences and continue to win. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I'll never say he can until he proves that he can.
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August 9th, 2019, 07:05 AM   #89
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Marc is able to make those saves and push to the limit and beyond because of the feedback he's getting from the RCV and the overall balance of the bike (combined with the electronics). A different bike will provide different levels of feedback (probably less than he's currently used to) and he would need to demonstrate that he's able to overcome the differences and continue to win. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I'll never say he can until he proves that he can.
This is the umpteenth rehashing of the old Valeban meme that amounted to: It's not Stoner. It's all the bike".

Rossifumi are all still waiting for a second coming of the Tavulia Messiah and a 10th championship, but can't bring themselves to acknowledge Marquez's potential to exceed his record. Some things never change.

Last edited by Keshav; August 9th, 2019 at 07:26 AM.
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August 9th, 2019, 07:11 AM   #90
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This the upteenth rehashing of the old Valeban meme that amounted to: It's not Stoner. It's all the bike".

Rossifumi are all still waiting for a second coming of the Tavulia Messiah and a 10th championship, but can't bring themselves to acknowledge Marquez's potential to exceed his record. Some things never change.
It's not all the bike, it's Marc's skills + the RCV that's been developed for his unique style and abilities. Marc + M1 or Marc + GP20 may not be the same formula for success. You're trying to turn this into some kind of Rossi debate because you cannot really argue that you know for a fact that Marquez can dominate on another bike. You may be shocked if Marc does eventually decide to switch bikes that he could struggle to find speed.
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