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August 7th, 2019, 10:22 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Segfault View Post
To make it turn better they have to make it shorter. Making bike shorter has negative impact on acceleration. Can't have both the same time.
Not necessarily, not all this way. A shorter bike has the ability to change direction faster, but it doesn't mean it has a good contact patch in the middle of the curve, and that is exactly the problem of the Ducati.

They don't need necessarily a shorter bike, as long as I could get they need a lower bike with lower center of mass (which will cause other problems) or more mass concentrated in the front (which is difficult given the currently layout of their engine). Either way, no easy life and obviously will disrupt their stable base.
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August 7th, 2019, 10:26 AM   #72
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It’s pretty crazy really when you think about it. Especially when they were struggling to get a podium. Now I think Gigi May be stuck between a rock and a hard place though. If he can get the bike to turn better then it will lose something either in the acceleration or braking. That is what has made the Ducati so hard to race against for the other manufacturers. It’s their strong points which have caused Marquez, Rins and others to make mistakes when racing the Ducati. If they lose a little in their strong points but gain in the cornering I’m not sure that Petrucci and Dovi get the same results that they’ve had over the past few years.
Completely agree. Possibly Dovi isn't considering the drawbacks of losing some of this strong points in order to turn better. He will need to change his style and I highly doubt he will get to it.

The best way is to convince and wait Jorge to jump back in their bike and thus commit the changes to make it turn better.
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August 7th, 2019, 07:18 PM   #73
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Absolutely. I am hardly the biggest Rossi fan on here, but if you could ride the 2007 Ducati as the bike wanted to be ridden as Stoner put it and managed to do, then no-one could defeat that bike on a 2007 Yamaha, even Valentino Rossi who didn't fail to win the title that year because of deficiencies in his riding.

I would have thought Gigi's current frustration may at least partly relate to the fact that he got to a stage where a decidedly non Marquez or Stoner-like rider in Jorge dominated a few races on a Ducati which allowed him to employ his "butter hammer" mode fairly full-on, but he is gone and the bike seems to have gone away with him.
I think the Ducati is still a strong bike, its 2 and 3 in the championship also scoring podiums with its satellite team. I think the Honda's got a little stronger this season which closed the performance gap between them, add Marc into the equation and they cant stop him.

I don't think the current Ducati would have any problems winning the championship with Marquez piloting it.
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August 8th, 2019, 01:47 AM   #74
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I think the Ducati is still a strong bike, its 2 and 3 in the championship also scoring podiums with its satellite team. I think the Honda's got a little stronger this season which closed the performance gap between them, add Marc into the equation and they cant stop him.

I don't think the current Ducati would have any problems winning the championship with Marquez piloting it.
Personally I think Marc would win the championship on all the bikes, except the KTM which he would still win races on.

However you are right about the Ducati, it's just that Dovi and Petrux haven't got a championship in them on speed alone. Jorge would likely be nipping at Marc's heels and winning with fair consistency if he were still on a red machine. Problem is Marc doesn't cross the line off the podium these days and that level of podium frequency can't be beaten.
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August 8th, 2019, 04:06 AM   #75
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Personally I think Marc would win the championship on all the bikes, except the KTM which he would still win races on.

However you are right about the Ducati, it's just that Dovi and Petrux haven't got a championship in them on speed alone. Jorge would likely be nipping at Marc's heels and winning with fair consistency if he were still on a red machine. Problem is Marc doesn't cross the line off the podium these days and that level of podium frequency can't be beaten.
I dunno . . . I think with a better turning bike Dovi would have had a very good chance in the last two seasons.

I can't see any evidence that Lorenzo would be more likely to win a championship against Marquez, while riding the Ducati. Nothing about his results over the course of two seasons points to that conclusion. Dovi (who is a year older and less fussy about the small stuff) won more races on the Ducati.

I reckon people assume that Lorenzo would have eventually out perform Dovi - simply because he won two championships, but those two were when he was much younger on a bike that a perfect match for his style of riding.

It's like they say about buying stocks on Wall Street: "Past results are not indicative of future performance."
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August 8th, 2019, 06:37 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post

I reckon people assume that Lorenzo would have eventually out perform Dovi - simply because he won two championships, but those two were when he was much younger on a bike that a perfect match for his style of riding.

It's like they say about buying stocks on Wall Street: "Past results are not indicative of future performance."

Lorenzo dominated the field on multiple occasions last year. He was well on track to totally show up Dovi, ran out of time. He made the duc look like it is the bike it's capable of, Dovi can't do that. Lorenzo 2019 on the red, is likely a championship contender.
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August 8th, 2019, 07:01 PM   #77
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Lorenzo dominated the field on multiple occasions last year. He was well on track to totally show up Dovi, ran out of time. He made the duc look like it is the bike it's capable of, Dovi can't do that. Lorenzo 2019 on the red, is likely a championship contender.
Frankly - I don't see how Lorenzo can be said to have surpassed Dovi on the Ducati. Remember, who it was that was lead rider during the worst of the fallow years at Ducati (after Rossi fucked off) working with Gigi to turn the bike around. Lorenzo (and other Duc riders as well) benefitted greatly from all the testing and feedback from Dovi that made the bike as capable as it is now.
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August 8th, 2019, 10:56 PM   #78
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Last edited by michaelm; August 8th, 2019 at 11:14 PM.
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August 8th, 2019, 11:04 PM   #79
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Frankly - I don't see how Lorenzo can be said to have surpassed Dovi on the Ducati. Remember, who it was that was lead rider during the worst of the fallow years at Ducati (after Rossi fucked off) working with Gigi to turn the bike around. Lorenzo (and other Duc riders as well) benefitted greatly from all the testing and feedback from Dovi that made the bike as capable as it is now.
The only problem with Dovi being responsible for improving the bike is that this would not seem to be the view of Gigi himself.

There seem to be two ways of beating MM, those being to have a significantly superior bike or to have him not accept that he can’t dominate every race and repeatedly throw his bike down the road. He seems to have rejected the second option now.

Dovi raced MM admirably, and kept his cool/kept his powder dry better than anyone else would have done in those several last corner battles he won. I think this was partly by exploiting deficiencies in the Honda which have now improved (in MM’s hands at least) on this year’s bike and MM no longer being an all or nothing guy in the last corner of a race.

Jorge showed absolutely dominant pace in those 3 races he won which it was hard to see even MM doing anything about by trying harder, pace Dovi has never shown, and he did this as a renowned corner speed rider rather than by the MM or Stoner methods. I saw some prospect of him being able to continue along those lines if he was the focus of the team, and reading between the lines Gigi seems to have thought along those lines as well, or at least that a team focused on Dovi as the number 1 rider is not the way to win a championship; Dovi being imo a career gallant runner up, canny racer/tactician when circumstances allow though he may be.
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Last edited by michaelm; August 9th, 2019 at 03:16 AM.
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August 8th, 2019, 11:21 PM   #80
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Frankly - I don't see how Lorenzo can be said to have surpassed Dovi on the Ducati. Remember, who it was that was lead rider during the worst of the fallow years at Ducati (after Rossi fucked off) working with Gigi to turn the bike around. Lorenzo (and other Duc riders as well) benefitted greatly from all the testing and feedback from Dovi that made the bike as capable as it is now.
I wouldn't say Jorge surpassed Dovi at Ducati but when Jorge was having a good weekend on the Ducati and had it dialled in he did seem to be able to dominate the race more so than Dovi could. Maybe Ducati see Jorges potential in that aspect and think he could better take the fight to Marc than Dovi could??

If you put Dovi and Petrucci on the Honda I don't think they would be able to beat Marc but if you put Marc on the Ducati I feel he could beat both of them... Ducati's battle is not with Honda but with Marc (Jorge shows that), the Ducati would have to be an unbelievably better bike than whatever Marc is riding to even give them a chance of winning a title against him. With control tyres, standardised electronics and software the performance gap between different bikes is getting smaller and harder to achieve (wings, wheel covers, brake diffusers, holeshot devices still isn't enough) the chances of them being able to build a bike thats head and shoulders above whatever Marc is riding is slim to none.

If Ducati want a championship they need a rider of Marc's calibre which I don't think there currently is in the MotoGP field...Maybe they think Jorge has a better chance of being able to do that than Dovi or Petrux. I think their best chance of clinching a championship would be to approach Marc with an open chequebook.
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