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August 10th, 2019, 02:47 PM   #111
Gaz
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Gaz

I totally get the concept of the rider essentially just giving feedback and have never subscribed to the idea that a rider is "developing" a bike. My point is that an uncomplaining Dovi spent a lot of time on a much less than ideal Ducati doing the donkey work, while primadonna Lorenzo came in, bitching and moaning all the time yet benefited from all that work and had a few spurts of competitiveness.

The fact that Dovi looked better when Lorenzo was on the team I think is largely coincidence. From where I sit, it looks like Ducati has not really advanced this year, whereas HRC very clearly have done so.
Totallay understand your side, just fully disagree as for me I would not say that the Ducati was making forward progress until Gabbarini and Lorenzo returned.

Sure it won a race or 2 in 2016 and the overall results had improved slightly, but that is only slightly and should be happening with year on year factory driven development.

To me the proof is in the results.

Lorenzo leaves Yamaha - who have struggled since

Lorenzo heads to Ducati - Gabbarini arrives - Ducati suddenly look like they have a chance at the world title only with Dovi, not Lorenzo who takes a full year to start to get comfortable and then in second year shows what he can do. Slow, absolutely. Disappointing, moreso but he showed that he wast he man. It was in this time we also started to see the 'un-melting' of the ice cool Dovi as he was challenged from internal.

Lorenzo leaves Ducati who have seemingly struggled since with a reduced number of podiums but still a couple of wins. May be to early to call it a failed season by comparison to last year, and certainly there has been some bad luck but for mine (and as an Aussie it pains me to type this), but for mine Petrucci has looked more likely - he just needs a bit more race smarts at the front.

Now is where it gets ugly as Lorenzo is again miserable on the Honda (first year) which has bitten and hurt him. But here is also where I see a different story s at Ducati he was bought there for race wins and titles as they wanted a world title so they worked with him to get him the bike he needed. Honda have that champion, an even better one so they are less likely to work with JL and change their bike as dramatically as Ducati did for him, so possibly they will call a bluff.

I totally get that Dovi had a few good years on a bike but I honestly do not see that he played as big a part as Lorenzo, Gabbarini and to a lesser extent Stoner's rocket in tests.

I woudl actually say that if Dovi were a running athlete, based on his 2016 - 2017 improvements he would have experienced far more drug tests such was the significant up shift (not suggesting or insinuating here but comparison to other sports)
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August 10th, 2019, 03:49 PM   #112
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Yeah, that's the mob treatment. When Dovi entertained us by out-maneuvering Marques everybody was full of praise - that's the professor! Now he hasn't done anything special for a while - little dick he is.
Read it again. The little prick description is not of Dovi. It's Lorenzo.
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August 10th, 2019, 04:01 PM   #113
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Totallay understand your side, just fully disagree as for me I would not say that the Ducati was making forward progress until Gabbarini and Lorenzo returned.

Sure it won a race or 2 in 2016 and the overall results had improved slightly, but that is only slightly and should be happening with year on year factory driven development.

To me the proof is in the results.

Lorenzo leaves Yamaha - who have struggled since

Lorenzo heads to Ducati - Gabbarini arrives - Ducati suddenly look like they have a chance at the world title only with Dovi, not Lorenzo who takes a full year to start to get comfortable and then in second year shows what he can do. Slow, absolutely. Disappointing, moreso but he showed that he wast he man. It was in this time we also started to see the 'un-melting' of the ice cool Dovi as he was challenged from internal.

Lorenzo leaves Ducati who have seemingly struggled since with a reduced number of podiums but still a couple of wins. May be to early to call it a failed season by comparison to last year, and certainly there has been some bad luck but for mine (and as an Aussie it pains me to type this), but for mine Petrucci has looked more likely - he just needs a bit more race smarts at the front.

Now is where it gets ugly as Lorenzo is again miserable on the Honda (first year) which has bitten and hurt him. But here is also where I see a different story s at Ducati he was bought there for race wins and titles as they wanted a world title so they worked with him to get him the bike he needed. Honda have that champion, an even better one so they are less likely to work with JL and change their bike as dramatically as Ducati did for him, so possibly they will call a bluff.

I totally get that Dovi had a few good years on a bike but I honestly do not see that he played as big a part as Lorenzo, Gabbarini and to a lesser extent Stoner's rocket in tests.

I woudl actually say that if Dovi were a running athlete, based on his 2016 - 2017 improvements he would have experienced far more drug tests such was the significant up shift (not suggesting or insinuating here but comparison to other sports)
Again . . . I don't correlate Yamaha's downturn with the loss of Lorenzo. Just coincidence. It's a pattern with the big companies where they have a few really killer years and then the engineers lose the thread for a while. And were they not having financial issues? I think Yamaha R&D lost a lot of steam in the wake of losing much of their sponsorship money when Rossi was at Ducati. And of course there's the common perception that it was always Rossi's specs that Yamaha were focused on; or so the Powerslide cognescenti all insisted.

I suspect in the long run our (yours and mine) personal preferences for given riders may color our perceptions on all this. Nobody can truly say they are 100% objective.
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August 10th, 2019, 06:46 PM   #114
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Read it again. The little prick description is not of Dovi. It's Lorenzo.
You called Lorenzo a Prima Donna, I did actually call Dovi a Prima Donna so I plead guilty to the accusation.

Both of them are Prima Donnas imo, but one has won 3 titles in one of which he beat the guy who is probably the greatest rider of all time, and in another in which he was defeated by the margin MM gained from a repeat of Rossi’s Gibernau move at Jerez, while the other seems to think running MM vaguely close for 1 season gives him status similar to the top 10 all time guys in the field. I don’t recall Randy Mamola having similar attitude, and he ran second several times with all time greats in the field.

Maybe Jorge is past his best, and I still think the most likely outcome is him retiring as was said in the coverage of practice which I watched yesterday. You say the riders are irrelevant to development, but which of them was most responsible for the improvement of the bike was reported widely to be a major point of contention between the two. By your own argument the guy most important to the bike in Gigi seems to disagree with you both about the unimportance of the rider leading development and in preferring Lorenzo to Dovi for Ducati in general.

I have no problem with an assessment that Jorge has always been a prick and continues to be one. I also agree that Dovi has been less Diva like than most over his career, which does not preclude him having become one now just as you argue that Jorge being good in the past doesn’t necessarily make him good now.
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Last edited by michaelm; August 11th, 2019 at 02:50 AM.
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August 10th, 2019, 07:12 PM   #115
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Marquez has accomplished much more in a shorter time and shows no signs of Prima donna behavior that I’ve seen. Given Lorenzo’s performance over the last three seasons a bit of humility would definitely be in order.
I agreed with Jumkie’s dubbing of MM as MurderMarc and questioning whether he had autistic tendencies when he was a teenager, it was hard to disagree after the Willairot incident in particular.

Now he has matured and seems to care more about the safety of other riders and perhaps his own I find his attitude in general refreshing, saying it all on the track, perhaps more like Hailwood reportedly was than several other greats, and his forbearance/ability to be undaunted by en masse vilification when the target of the Valeban and their hero was one of the things which really convinced me about him; my own attitude to Rossi has returned to the attitude I had when he first returned to Yamaha btw.

I like my racing heroes warts and all, like Stoner, to some extent Doohan whom I imagine Alex Criville considered to be a total prick, and Jorge. To each his own as you say elsewhere.
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