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March 11th, 2019, 10:14 AM   #81
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As far as I am concerned the fault is not of Ducati, but of the people who write the rules to allow for these types of loopholes, and the other manufacturers for not developing a similar solution. Talking about the spirit of the rules is a cop out. Either you innovate and push the limits of legality or you stay home.

KTM need to hire smarter engineers so they then have the problem of other teams jealously trying to prevent them from gaining an advantage. Bringing 16 new chassis and 20 swingarms to race weekends just proves how inefficient they are. Ducati identify a problem and produce one or two innovative solutions and test them with a thorough program. That is how to go racing.
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Last edited by ratdeal; March 11th, 2019 at 10:16 AM.
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March 11th, 2019, 11:01 AM   #82
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I Ride: DRZ400sm and KTM SXF450sm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
Nothing for now.

But we get some [unhappy] words from KTM Pit Beirer:

Pit Beirer: Why KTM has protested against Ducati

"Team Manager Mike Leitner and I are going to Tardozzi on Sunday afternoon to tell Pit-walk that we're going to protest if they use the wing in the race," KTM Motorsport Director Pit Beirer said in an interview SPEEDWEEK.com. "And that we probably will not agree on this. He smiled and meant, they are convinced that the part complies with the regulations. We told him, four manufacturers see the other. That's why the protest will happen. "

"This protest is a logical consequence," added Beirer. «We are now accused that we could have said something at the Qatar test. But then you see 1000 new parts from all sorts of manufacturers, and then you look at a part of it more closely and think about what was fabricated there and what it means. We met with the other manufacturers at the Qatar GP and talked about this part. We believe that this wing does not match what we mean by tire cooling or aerodynamics. Four manufacturers have assumed that this part aerodynamically makes a difference. We communicated this to Technical Director Danny Aldridge and asked him to inform Ducati as well. We did not want to be driven with this part. However, Ducati's point of view was clear: they are convinced that they are within the rules. The other manufacturers deny that. You can make a protest only at the race. So we did that. Ducati was aware before Saturday was over that they would face a protest. Nevertheless you drove on this part on Sunday. But we can not be accused, nobody would have said anything, we would have let Ducati run into the open knife. We are not concerned. That Ducati is denied the victory of Dovi. Hopefully Dovi will not lose this victory because he deserved to win. And Ducati with their technical performance just like that. But we want clarity for the future. Otherwise, next comes the rear wing on the hump ... It's about that such aerodynamic excesses are contained in the future. That's what the four manufacturers want. Neither of us is interested in Dovi being deprived of this well-deserved victory. This victory certainly did not arise, because down there now a new plastic part on the swingarm hangs.

Beirer: "Ducati can not blame us for not being forewarned. She wants to portray it as if everyone had shut up, then let Ducati win and subsequently protested. It was not like that. We have made it clear before that if we go with the part, we will make the protest to clarify if that is legal. This zone in the regulations must be clarified. Then in each plant, five people can stop worrying about the next aerodynamic part. It's starting to get a little bit out of hand. This aerodynamic madness has to be stopped a bit. »

"It was definitely not the case that Mike first said on Sunday that we are not against this part," emphasizes Pit Beirer. "We were against it from the beginning and have insisted on a clarification."

The engineers at Honda, Suzuki, KTM and Aprilia are convinced that the faulty wing or rain deflector generates unauthorized downforce or downforce, which is an aerodynamic aid and is not used to cool the tire.

Beirer: "You just have to enter something into a computer model, then you can see where the wind whistles past. If the wind can create pressure surfaces down, then you have downforce, no question. The whole wings, which now hang on the side of the panel, cause something, even though they are only small pieces of plastic. Take a look at a Formula 1 front wing, how many parts it consists of, which all have an influence. But we really do not want to go there. "

Yamaha technician Ramon Forcada said that at Yamaha in Valencia they had mounted similar deflections only in the rain to keep water from the rear tire. "There are all four manufacturers agree that the Yamaha wing was also so worked and all was just for that thought," says Beirer. "The Yamaha part just made sure to get the water out of the tire. That's why you can not compare the two wings. But from me they should also prohibit such a part in the rain. No-one on a racing bike needs all this bells and whistles. We want to find out who he is the best motorcyclist and not who builds the best wings.

Address of this article:

- Mehr bei SPEEDWEEK: Pit Beirer: Warum KTM gegen Ducati protestiert hat/MotoGP SPEEDWEEK


----------------------------------

LoL to the bold part. So what the fuck KTM is doing in the series if the only reason is figuring out who is the best motorcyclist?

Motorcycle racing involve mainly two factors: a motorcycle (obvious) and a rider. It's all about the pair. Actually I think we all figured out already who the best rider is (MM?), and the racing is funny also because worst riders can capitalize over his bikes being better and more developed to equalize the race.

They are going to destroy prototype racing this way. The day technology development stops to make room only for the rider, I stop watching bike racing too. That's obvious.
Good post - tho I expect a lot of people would continue to watch MotoGp even if there was a big damper on new technology. At a certain point people would come to appreciate just how spoiled we are given the level of sophistication of the current crop of bikes. The improvements from year-to-year are not really all that dramatic. People still watch baseball and football by the zillions because they love the teams and the human drama.
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March 11th, 2019, 11:29 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gui22a;459846[B
]When Honda work around the rules with the seamless clutch (cause dual clutch wasn't allowed[/B]), they disrupted the cost regulation completely, specially because the new clutch lasts for no more than a single race without the need for maintenance. Well, we didn't heard a single "moan" from any manufacturer, instead, they all ran as quick as possible to design (or buy a design) its own version of the fast, seamless gear clutch. Personally I loved the idea and praise Honda for that. That's the spirit of prototype racing. But when is Ducati trying to innovate, it seems there are some manufacturers that do not accept being beaten in the engineering field.

Ducati has been a victim of rule changing overnight since 2006. 800cc engines, spec tires (the worst for them, it took them 4+ years to design a bike around a tire), wing ban/rules changing every year, among others.

If Dovi's victory is to be canceled, better give MM the 2019 champion crown right now and start 2020 season from Argentina. There is nobody else to challenge MM, canceling out 25 points from Dovi and give it free for MM starting the season 25 points over his main opponent is ridiculous from the championship point of view. A decision like that would kill the season.
Get your facts right! It is not a dual clutch or seamless clutch as you call it. If you were paying attention you would have known its all done within the transmission. Here let me help you > https://www.google.com/search?q=hond...rwJofSaq6zZKM:

Are you familiar with the Patent process? I'm pretty sure it exist in Brazil


Like I said HRC innovate while others apply band aid.

Last edited by evo9; March 11th, 2019 at 11:32 AM.
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March 11th, 2019, 11:52 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdeal View Post
As far as I am concerned the fault is not of Ducati, but of the people who write the rules to allow for these types of loopholes, and the other manufacturers for not developing a similar solution. Talking about the spirit of the rules is a cop out. Either you innovate and push the limits of legality or you stay home.

KTM need to hire smarter engineers so they then have the problem of other teams jealously trying to prevent them from gaining an advantage. Bringing 16 new chassis and 20 swingarms to race weekends just proves how inefficient they are. Ducati identify a problem and produce one or two innovative solutions and test them with a thorough program. That is how to go racing.
How is that possible since their racing dept is mostly all ex HRC folks? Also how can you associate inefficient with a factory ability to produce parts?
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March 11th, 2019, 11:55 AM   #85
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Honda actually developed the system for Formula 1 use, debuting it in 2005. At a glance it looks like they miniaturized the entire cassette and adapted it packaging for the RCV in 2011.
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March 11th, 2019, 12:01 PM   #86
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Well according to Ducati, its a wheel cooler device https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/ne...zioso/4350771/
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March 11th, 2019, 12:03 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
How is that possible since their racing dept is mostly all ex HRC folks? Also how can you associate inefficient with a factory ability to produce parts?
Because each factory has its own R&D process, otherwise they would all come up with the same or similar solutions. It is the design engineering leads that dictate development. They have too many people working on different solutions when the correct development path is where all that manpower should be invested. The problem is they can't identify that path.

The ability to produce parts isn't where the inefficiency lies. It is in their ability to accurately dictate development path based upon the interpretation of the data produced. An inefficient race department will produce numerous solutions in the hope that one sticks. An efficient one will invest their time in refining a solution that is the right one.

It has been said more than once that KTM and it's riders are confused because they have too much to test all at once and so cannot provide feedback as they have no idea which part is an improvement and which isn't. Thats why they brought Tech 3 in as a secondary team.
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March 11th, 2019, 12:05 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
Well according to Ducati, its a wheel cooler device https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/ne...zioso/4350771/
They also said the salad box is full of... well, salad.
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March 11th, 2019, 12:17 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdeal View Post
They also said the salad box is full of... well, salad.
I'm sure it is, with a bottle of Italian dressing lol! The swing arm scoop is doing three things, Cooler, down force generator & side curtain buffer.
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March 11th, 2019, 12:24 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdeal View Post
Because each factory has its own R&D process, otherwise they would all come up with the same or similar solutions. It is the design engineering leads that dictate development. They have too many people working on different solutions when the correct development path is where all that manpower should be invested. The problem is they can't identify that path.

The ability to produce parts isn't where the inefficiency lies. It is in their ability to accurately dictate development path based upon the interpretation of the data produced. An inefficient race department will produce numerous solutions in the hope that one sticks. An efficient one will invest their time in refining a solution that is the right one.

It has been said more than once that KTM and it's riders are confused because they have too much to test all at once and so cannot provide feedback as they have no idea which part is an improvement and which isn't. Thats why they brought Tech 3 in as a secondary team.


I would say inexperience is their primary problem. Which is causing their confusion, along with their rapid desire to be at the front. It would be wise of them to have Kalex or similar, design & MFG an aluminium frame for them. Then they can worry about making those steel tubes work with Dani. They seems to already have good motor.
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