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March 11th, 2019, 06:26 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
hmm, I think if it is generating downforce so it's in fact decelerating the air flow, and not accelerating. To create pressure you should slow down the air in the opposite direction you want the force to act (like an air plane wing).

But to be honest I highly doubt Ducati is using that shit to cool the tire.
This is correct but only half the story as one side slows the airflow, the underside in fact increases in speed due to the pressure differential. Taking into account the direction and speed of the tyre as it moves past the wing only serves to accelerate this flow as it is in effect sucking the air both above and below the wing exaggerating this overall effect.

I think that the redirected airflow may have only a tiny effect in surface temperature due to direct contact but actually the temperature decrease is from the increased load preventing wheel spin. Marginal gains.
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Last edited by ratdeal; March 11th, 2019 at 06:28 AM.
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March 11th, 2019, 06:32 AM   #72
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Quote:
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This is correct but only half the story as one side slows the airflow, the underside in fact increases in speed due to the pressure differential. Taking into account the direction and speed of the tyre as it moves past the wing only serves to accelerate this flow as it is in effect sucking the air both above and below the wing exaggerating this overall effect.

I think that the redirected airflow may have only a tiny effect in surface temperature due to direct contact but actually the temperature decrease is from the increased load preventing wheel spin. Marginal gains.
You're right, good observation.

And yeah, I doubt it's cooling the tire from wind, more likely it's preventing extra heat from spin, as you pointed.

So, it's indeed a downforce wing. What is said by the rulebook? If this is prohibited, they must cancel Dovi's victory. On the other side, this will completely fuck the title race and the championship will end before mid-season.
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March 11th, 2019, 06:41 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
You're right, good observation.

And yeah, I doubt it's cooling the tire from wind, more likely it's preventing extra heat from spin, as you pointed.

So, it's indeed a downforce wing. What is said by the rulebook? If this is prohibited, they must cancel Dovi's victory. On the other side, this will completely fuck the title race and the championship will end before mid-season.
This from Neil Spalding:

Unsprung aero certainly works for @Petrux9.. just puts a little more load into the tyre.. ...@DucatiMotor@MotoGP

The rules state that the aero dynamically regulated parts of the bike are the fairing and front mudguard. In addition the rear swingarm spoiler is not considered a movable aerodynamic device as it remains static in relation to its mounting point and is not independently controlled.
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March 11th, 2019, 07:18 AM   #74
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It has also been suggested that the front wheel cover is being used to control airflow further down the bike. Supporting this is that the front wheel cover and rear wheel spoiler are being used together and have not been used seperately thus far.

Usually the front wheel creates alot of turbulence. My guess is that the are trying to control this so that the airflow remains attached to the sides of and under the fairing in order to maximise the volume of air that is interacting with the rear wheel spoiler. The solution as a whole must create alot of drag, but the engine performance allows them some margin for this as they seemingly still have straight line performance to spare.

If the other manufacturers do not replicate the Ducati system I would say that is probably because they don't have enough engine performance to compensate for the increased drag.
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March 11th, 2019, 08:56 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdeal View Post
It has also been suggested that the front wheel cover is being used to control airflow further down the bike. Supporting this is that the front wheel cover and rear wheel spoiler are being used together and have not been used seperately thus far.

Usually the front wheel creates alot of turbulence. My guess is that the are trying to control this so that the airflow remains attached to the sides of and under the fairing in order to maximise the volume of air that is interacting with the rear wheel spoiler. The solution as a whole must create alot of drag, but the engine performance allows them some margin for this as they seemingly still have straight line performance to spare.

If the other manufacturers do not replicate the Ducati system I would say that is probably because they don't have enough engine performance to compensate for the increased drag.
I noticed that through cameras onboard MM bike that Ducati's Dovi was accelerating much better at the exit of corners, but in the end of the straight MM's Honda was more elastic. This can be due to better grip provided by the appendage, having also increased drag causing Ducati to slow down acceleration rate at the end of straight and thus lower top speed than Honda.

I also noted through (I hate type this word and any other beginning with thr, always mistaking, lol) engine audios that Honda has changed the firing order. I'm sure it's something between a big bang and a screamer.
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March 11th, 2019, 08:59 AM   #76
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Honda 2018:



Honda 2019:



What do you think?
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March 11th, 2019, 09:19 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
I noticed that through cameras onboard MM bike that Ducati's Dovi was accelerating much better at the exit of corners, but in the end of the straight MM's Honda was more elastic. This can be due to better grip provided by the appendage, having also increased drag causing Ducati to slow down acceleration rate at the end of straight and thus lower top speed than Honda.

I also noted through (I hate type this word and any other beginning with thr, always mistaking, lol) engine audios that Honda has changed the firing order. I'm sure it's something between a big bang and a screamer.
The Ducati has always had great performance in the exit phase of the corner. This is due to a number of factors but one of the most obvious to me is that this is the benefit they get from a bike that is very stable which is also shown on the entry phase on the brakes. However the disadvantage of this is that mid corner the motorcycle is slower.

You are correct that once the Ducati reaches higher speeds it clearly has more drag which is why the other bikes are now able to stay within and even close up in the slipstream, however there are only four tracks with straights over 1km, Qatar being one of them.

To answer the question about the Honda engine, we know they are producing more peak horsepower. In addition they have a new exhaust system this year. I think this may be why the engine sounds different as changing the firing order would be a fundamental change and there haven't been any complaints from riders regarding the Honda's engine character, just that it needs more top end performance.
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March 11th, 2019, 09:29 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
hmm, I think if it is generating downforce so it's in fact decelerating the air flow, and not accelerating. To create pressure you should slow down the air in the opposite direction you want the force to act (like an air plane wing).

But to be honest I highly doubt Ducati is using that shit to cool the tire.
Has there been any official statement from Ducati identifing the nature of the device?
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March 11th, 2019, 09:36 AM   #79
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Has there been any official statement from Ducati identifing the nature of the device?
Only from Petrucci saying it's primary function isn't cooling, but that Gigi won't let him say what it is really for...

I think that the fact that it helps control rear tyre temp is a compound effect of its main purpose, which is to increase rear tyre load.

Keep in mind that Ducati experimented with the rear torque bar all winter but ultimately discarded the idea. This in my mind is a different solution for the same problem. Trying to force the rear tyre into contact with the asphalt to maximise the efficiency of the rear tyre which we know has superior grip to the front.

I earlier interpreted it's purpose the wrong way around. Tyre temp isn't the main focus, load is. But increasing the load has helped with the temperature problem.
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Last edited by ratdeal; March 11th, 2019 at 09:43 AM.
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March 11th, 2019, 10:05 AM   #80
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Has there been any official statement from Ducati identifing the nature of the device?
Nothing for now.

But we get some [unhappy] words from KTM Pit Beirer:

Pit Beirer: Why KTM has protested against Ducati

"Team Manager Mike Leitner and I are going to Tardozzi on Sunday afternoon to tell Pit-walk that we're going to protest if they use the wing in the race," KTM Motorsport Director Pit Beirer said in an interview SPEEDWEEK.com. "And that we probably will not agree on this. He smiled and meant, they are convinced that the part complies with the regulations. We told him, four manufacturers see the other. That's why the protest will happen. "

"This protest is a logical consequence," added Beirer. «We are now accused that we could have said something at the Qatar test. But then you see 1000 new parts from all sorts of manufacturers, and then you look at a part of it more closely and think about what was fabricated there and what it means. We met with the other manufacturers at the Qatar GP and talked about this part. We believe that this wing does not match what we mean by tire cooling or aerodynamics. Four manufacturers have assumed that this part aerodynamically makes a difference. We communicated this to Technical Director Danny Aldridge and asked him to inform Ducati as well. We did not want to be driven with this part. However, Ducati's point of view was clear: they are convinced that they are within the rules. The other manufacturers deny that. You can make a protest only at the race. So we did that. Ducati was aware before Saturday was over that they would face a protest. Nevertheless you drove on this part on Sunday. But we can not be accused, nobody would have said anything, we would have let Ducati run into the open knife. We are not concerned. That Ducati is denied the victory of Dovi. Hopefully Dovi will not lose this victory because he deserved to win. And Ducati with their technical performance just like that. But we want clarity for the future. Otherwise, next comes the rear wing on the hump ... It's about that such aerodynamic excesses are contained in the future. That's what the four manufacturers want. Neither of us is interested in Dovi being deprived of this well-deserved victory. This victory certainly did not arise, because down there now a new plastic part on the swingarm hangs.

Beirer: "Ducati can not blame us for not being forewarned. She wants to portray it as if everyone had shut up, then let Ducati win and subsequently protested. It was not like that. We have made it clear before that if we go with the part, we will make the protest to clarify if that is legal. This zone in the regulations must be clarified. Then in each plant, five people can stop worrying about the next aerodynamic part. It's starting to get a little bit out of hand. This aerodynamic madness has to be stopped a bit. »

"It was definitely not the case that Mike first said on Sunday that we are not against this part," emphasizes Pit Beirer. "We were against it from the beginning and have insisted on a clarification."

The engineers at Honda, Suzuki, KTM and Aprilia are convinced that the faulty wing or rain deflector generates unauthorized downforce or downforce, which is an aerodynamic aid and is not used to cool the tire.

Beirer: "You just have to enter something into a computer model, then you can see where the wind whistles past. If the wind can create pressure surfaces down, then you have downforce, no question. The whole wings, which now hang on the side of the panel, cause something, even though they are only small pieces of plastic. Take a look at a Formula 1 front wing, how many parts it consists of, which all have an influence. But we really do not want to go there. "

Yamaha technician Ramon Forcada said that at Yamaha in Valencia they had mounted similar deflections only in the rain to keep water from the rear tire. "There are all four manufacturers agree that the Yamaha wing was also so worked and all was just for that thought," says Beirer. "The Yamaha part just made sure to get the water out of the tire. That's why you can not compare the two wings. But from me they should also prohibit such a part in the rain. No-one on a racing bike needs all this bells and whistles. We want to find out who he is the best motorcyclist and not who builds the best wings.

Address of this article:

- Mehr bei SPEEDWEEK: Pit Beirer: Warum KTM gegen Ducati protestiert hat/MotoGP SPEEDWEEK


----------------------------------

LoL to the bold part. So what the fuck KTM is doing in the series if the only reason is figuring out who is the best motorcyclist?

Motorcycle racing involve mainly two factors: a motorcycle (obvious) and a rider. It's all about the pair. Actually I think we all figured out already who the best rider is (MM?), and the racing is funny also because worst riders can capitalize over his bikes being better and more developed to equalize the race.

They are going to destroy prototype racing this way. The day technology development stops to make room only for the rider, I stop watching bike racing too. That's obvious.
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