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March 11th, 2019, 01:50 AM   #61
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For what its worth, I don't think that the way Dorna have set the rules is right, what they need to do is set a budget for each constructor. The money should be deposited with Dorna and when its run out tough, thats it for the season. It'll then be down to the rider.
The ecu and ancillary things should be left to the manufacturer as should how big your bike is, but all wings, external or internal should be banned, I'd like to see launch control banned as well. It would give a lot of riders a chance of winning instead of coming in 16th etc.
Good race yesterday anyway, so pleased for Cal he looked so surprised hahahaha.
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March 11th, 2019, 01:50 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by AntG View Post
The thing with Ducati is that yes they are a small company compared to the Japanese but ever since they returned to GP racing in 2003 they've had the backing of Phillip Morris International who are a massive corporation so while they may lack the overall manpower that Honda have they aren't short of money, I bet they have a bigger racing budget than Suzuki and Yamaha do given that they run factory teams in MotoGP, SBK and provide Ducati Corse technicians to PBM in BSB.
Sure, the Marlboro money is significant, but the Ducati Corse operation in the 800 and 990 eras was scarcely bigger than Kenny Robert's operation, they couldn't make aluminium chassis, they couldn't make 2 trellis frames the same even for their lead rider, and while I haven't been in close sight of one of those bikes those who have speak of the artisanal/cobbled together nature of the devices. They have won one world championship ever, and that in their backyard operation days, a remarkable achievement, partly by co-developing a tire with the then also ran tire manufacturer, and had the rules changed against them straight away, not necessarily to help Honda though.

if their bikes are not compliant with the rules ban them. Otherwise they have already been pretty much forced to abandon their engineering DNA in a number of areas by the rules some claim are hampering Honda, and had a control tire imposed on them which rapidly moved away from suiting their somewhat idiosyncratic bike.

I am not anti-Honda btw, they provided bikes on which several of my favourite riders won GP championships, but complaining about Ducati (not addressing you in particular) who have won one championship ever and have not much option but to seek innovative engineering solutions to be competitive, and may have a genius engineer currently while Honda's engineering culture has historically not infrequently led them up blind alleys despite vastly superior resources, is a little rich imo. It is beginning to look as though a certain now retired engineer may have been rather crucial to Yamaha's success in recent decades as well; Yamaha relied on being cleverer than Honda with more limited resources as well.

(EDIT Those wings are ugly devices which just ain't natural though).
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Last edited by michaelm; March 11th, 2019 at 03:17 AM.
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March 11th, 2019, 03:50 AM   #63
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When Honda work around the rules with the seamless clutch (cause dual clutch wasn't allowed), they disrupted the cost regulation completely, specially because the new clutch lasts for no more than a single race without the need for maintenance. Well, we didn't heard a single "moan" from any manufacturer, instead, they all ran as quick as possible to design (or buy a design) its own version of the fast, seamless gear clutch. Personally I loved the idea and praise Honda for that. That's the spirit of prototype racing. But when is Ducati trying to innovate, it seems there are some manufacturers that do not accept being beaten in the engineering field.

Ducati has been a victim of rule changing overnight since 2006. 800cc engines, spec tires (the worst for them, it took them 4+ years to design a bike around a tire), wing ban/rules changing every year, among others.

If Dovi's victory is to be canceled, better give MM the 2019 champion crown right now and start 2020 season from Argentina. There is nobody else to challenge MM, canceling out 25 points from Dovi and give it free for MM starting the season 25 points over his main opponent is ridiculous from the championship point of view. A decision like that would kill the season.
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Last edited by gui22a; March 11th, 2019 at 04:41 AM.
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March 11th, 2019, 04:25 AM   #64
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This protest is a load of old tosh if you ask me. The whole point of prototype racing is to engineer solutions to problems as the rules are written. If it isn't banned in writing then it is legal. The rules are very clear. We shouldn't punish ingenuity unless it is a clear and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.

Ducati have found a way to control rear tyre temperature using a solution no one else thought of. If this shouldn't be permitted then why weren't Yamaha's cut away mud guards banned too? Then are we suggesting the mud guards should be standardised?

And if we are going down this route not on safety or cost grounds then we may aswell have a spec series in its entirety.

Mark my words, the other teams will develop similar cowlings and vanes now they know they can't hamper Ducati's development direction as it provides a work around that no one else had the presence of mind to engineer.
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March 11th, 2019, 05:28 AM   #65
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There's no difference between Ducati current solution to minimise heat in the rear tyre, than Honda last year doing same for crutchlows front.
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March 11th, 2019, 05:38 AM   #66
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MILLER EXPLAINS SEAT ISSUE AS BAGNAIA REVEALS PETRUCCI HIT IN QATAR MOTOGP



The Pramac Ducati riders had a dismal start to their 2019 MotoGP campaign in Qatar with both Jack Miller and Francesco Bagnaia forced to retire from the race.

Miller made a dream start in Qatar GP abode the Desmosedici GP19 as he battled Ducati’s Andrea Dovizioso, Honda’s Marc Marquez and LCR Honda’s Cal Crutchlow in the top half of the grid under the floodlights at Losail International Circuit.

His journey was short-lived though when a bizarre incident hampered his progress. As he battled for podium positions, his seat loosened on Lap 2. He was forced to get up and throw away his seat on the middle of the circuit – rather dangerously.



By that time, he plummeted down the order already. He continued his fight around the Top 10 but soon realised that he will not be able to complete the race which he will end up in crashing and so he took the option to retire on Lap 13 eventually.

Explaining the unusual circumstances to the media afterwards, Miller said: “The seat is glued to the subframe and the subframe is painted and the paint didn’t stick well enough. The glue ripped the seat and the paint off.

“I was going through the fast sequence of the right-handers, the first one was good, the second one I almost fell off the inside of the bike because the seat broke and then I felt the seat clip back in as it is fitted. I thought it was OK.

“But then at the next corner, bang it fell off again. So, I made it through the next left-hander and looked down to see that the seat was twisted. I grabbed it and threw it [away] but essentially once the paint and seat had been ripped off, the carbon itself is like ice and our arses have got no grip on them.

“I was trying to manage it as best I could, trying to stay with the guys, but by the time I threw the seat off, I was outside the Top 10. In the end, when Nakagami and Aleix got back past me, I decided to pull in which was the safer option because I was probably going to crash.

“I am happy anyway as it was still a solid weekend and I felt I could really fight for the podium and we were showing that until the seat fell off. Even when the seat fell off, I was on a bike that wasn’t handling but I was still able to stay with the front group.

“I think it shows we have good speed.” Miller wanted to continue on but the lean angles was severely disrupted especially in the corners which did not help with the riding as he started to not only lose pace but also places.

The investigation will be carried on by the team to ascertain why the seat came off in the race when they had already completed the whole practice and qualifying. The day for the Italian outfit got worse when rookie Bagnaia had to pull in as well at a similar time.

The 2018 Moto2 champion was running around the Top 10 when he went straight on at Turn 1 before deciding to retire. It looked like a mechanical issue but the Italian later on revealed that he was hit by Petrucci at the start where he lost his right wing.

The team called it an ‘unfortunate hit’ by its former rider, while Bagnaia labelled it as an aggressive move on the part of his fellow countryman. “I got off to a good start taking a line that allowed me to gain positions,” said Bagnaia.

“In the first corner, however, there was a very aggressive overtaking on Petrucci who touched me breaking the right wing. I tried but it was impossible to continue. It was a good weekend in which we worked well and the first laps were important to understand how the others ride.”
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March 11th, 2019, 05:38 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdeal View Post
This protest is a load of old tosh if you ask me. The whole point of prototype racing is to engineer solutions to problems as the rules are written. If it isn't banned in writing then it is legal. The rules are very clear. We shouldn't punish ingenuity unless it is a clear and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.

Ducati have found a way to control rear tyre temperature using a solution no one else thought of. If this shouldn't be permitted then why weren't Yamaha's cut away mud guards banned too? Then are we suggesting the mud guards should be standardised?

And if we are going down this route not on safety or cost grounds then we may aswell have a spec series in its entirety.

Mark my words, the other teams will develop similar cowlings and vanes now they know they can't hamper Ducati's development direction as it provides a work around that no one else had the presence of mind to engineer.
Good to see you back around mate.
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March 11th, 2019, 05:46 AM   #68
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Not alot to discuss in the off season!

Also, despite introducing many new fans to the sport they don't quite have the historical knowledge or technical understanding required to discuss to finer points of racing so I have to pop down here to get my fix every now and then!
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March 11th, 2019, 05:55 AM   #69
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One very interesting point to make is that the rear wheel spoiler isn't purely controlling the tyre temp by redirecting the airflow. Given it's design it is also speeding up the air before it reaches the tyre.

This creates two benefits:
1. It is accelerating the air providing a greater reduction in surface temp.
2. The side effect of this is that it is also creating some downforce. At higher speeds it is increasing the load on the tyre particularly in fast sweeping turns. The compound effect of this is that this load is preventing the tyre from spinning, providing a further decrease in the surface temperature of the tyre whilst increasing the load through the carcass and thus decreasing wear.

Ingenious in that it is controlling the tyre temp whilst also providing secondary benefits by increasing grip from additional load too!
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March 11th, 2019, 06:19 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdeal View Post
One very interesting point to make is that the rear wheel spoiler isn't purely controlling the tyre temp by redirecting the airflow. Given it's design it is also speeding up the air before it reaches the tyre.

This creates two benefits:
1. It is accelerating the air providing a greater reduction in surface temp.
2. The side effect of this is that it is also creating some downforce. At higher speeds it is increasing the load on the tyre particularly in fast sweeping turns. The compound effect of this is that this load is preventing the tyre from spinning, providing a further decrease in the surface temperature of the tyre whilst increasing the load through the carcass and thus decreasing wear.

Ingenious in that it is controlling the tyre temp whilst also providing secondary benefits by increasing grip from additional load too!
hmm, I think if it is generating downforce so it's in fact decelerating the air flow, and not accelerating. To create pressure you should slow down the air in the opposite direction you want the force to act (like an air plane wing).

But to be honest I highly doubt Ducati is using that shit to cool the tire.
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