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March 10th, 2019, 03:28 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
Problem for Ducati they have always exploited the rules in both SBK & Motogp. History has taught them & us when they piss Honda off they lose. If HRC was to employ all those little trickery bits they would be in big trouble. Remember the RC51!!! As it stands with all the tricks they can throw on the bike they can barely get ahead of the RCV. They really need to learn how to make a proper bike. They won this race but got schooled by Suzuki on how a bike works in a corner.


As for yamaha, sure they won't complain. It will be on their mule in Argentina.



.
No sympathy for Honda, who have often had their way in motogp, with the whole 800 formula reputedly their idea because of fit with their engineering philosophy, while Ducati when they were tiny Ducati Corse, pretty much a backyard operation, had rules changed against them. Different than WSBK, where they definitely benefited from favourable treatment, particularly when the fabulous flying Flammini brothers were running the show.

I am not sure how committed VW/Audi are to Ducati and GP bike racing, probably less than Honda are, but they are a much bigger company than Honda, and could obviously outspend them if they chose, although Honda still doubtless have the advantage as far as bike related engineering resources go.

Last edited by michaelm; March 10th, 2019 at 03:46 PM.
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March 10th, 2019, 03:45 PM   #52
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The thing with Ducati is that yes they are a small company compared to the Japanese but ever since they returned to GP racing in 2003 they've had the backing of Phillip Morris International who are a massive corporation so while they may lack the overall manpower that Honda have they aren't short of money, I bet they have a bigger racing budget than Suzuki and Yamaha do given that they run factory teams in MotoGP, SBK and provide Ducati Corse technicians to PBM in BSB.
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March 10th, 2019, 03:47 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
....
No my friend, that is called trying to innovate, that's the purpose of prototype racing. For me, the problem is Honda always wanting to win the game using money power........... .
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Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
Yeah, because when Honda is pissed off, they find a way to change the rules through Dorna. You know, the japanese factory bosses are super, super honest, so, in order to not infringe any rule, they make the rule fit their will. Much more elegant.......
While I fully agreed that prototype should be about innovation, I completely disagree with your Honda bashing.

First off, and a BIG FIRST, Honda did NOT want the ECU spec. So, right there, your argument is shot to hell. Second, if it was all about Honda money, then Honda would be the ones pushing the questionable rules envelope, not the other way around. There is more than one team that votes for the rules. It isn't run by Honda.

Honda and Yamaha VOTED to give Ducati concessions for YEARS, so Ducati could be more competitive. If Honda was like you say, they would have told Ducati to fuck-themselves, and there would be no Ducati in Motof'ingGP - period.

Ducati makes an outstanding engine. Their MotoGP bike is plenty good enough without pushing the rules. They just need to listen to the damn riders and get the s.o.b. to turn easier, then they may dominate like they did with Stoner. However, they still don't have Marquez. Best.

-------

Rins screwed up my perfect prediction and I will never forgive him. Stupid Suzuki trying to be a "contender". pfft. Amazing that VR is still better than MV, even on a bad day. Hang in for Danilo Petrucci, he is going to show this stuff this year. His team did not give him what he needed. You could see it on his face.

Yeah - Cal. Who else picked that one, hey? Some very fast boys out there mixing it up without incidents. It is going to be another teeth clenching year, mates.

Last edited by Iamapony; March 10th, 2019 at 03:50 PM.
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March 10th, 2019, 03:55 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamapony View Post
While I fully agreed that prototype should be about innovation, I completely disagree with your Honda bashing.

First off, and a BIG FIRST, Honda did NOT want the ECU spec. So, right there, your argument is shot to hell. Second, if it was all about Honda money, then Honda would be the ones pushing the questionable rules envelope, not the other way around. There is more than one team that votes for the rules. It isn't run by Honda.
LoL, but Ducati did not want the spec ECU too. BTW, no factory wants it. Don't get your point here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamapony View Post
Honda and Yamaha VOTED to give Ducati concessions for YEARS, so Ducati could be more competitive. If Honda was like you say, they would have told Ducati to fuck-themselves, and there would be no Ducati in Motof'ingGP - period.
It's the minimum they should do after magnetizing the rules around them. They voted because Ducati was going to leave the series, joining Kawasaki and Suzuki. What would remain? MotoGP was going to vanish like F1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamapony View Post
Ducati makes an outstanding engine. Their MotoGP is plenty good enough without pushing the rules. They just need to listen to the damn riders and get the s.o.b. to turn easier, then they may dominate like they did with Stoner. However, they still don't have Marquez. Best.
ah, could not realize soon... another sofa analyst... yeah, they have a good engine, a nice bike, so now they just need to hear the riders, make the bike turn and vouala, they will win all races. aaa... gimme a break fella.
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March 10th, 2019, 04:18 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
LoL, but Ducati did not want the spec ECU too. BTW, no factory wants it. Don't get your point here.



It's the minimum they should do after magnetizing the rules around them. They voted because Ducati was going to leave the series, joining Kawasaki and Suzuki. What would remain? MotoGP was going to vanish like F1.



ah, could not realize soon... another sofa analyst... yeah, they have a good engine, a nice bike, so now they just need to hear the riders, make the bike turn and vouala, they will win all races. aaa... gimme a break fella.
My understanding is that the the "spec" ECU, while perhaps less manipulable is no different than the Magnetti Marelli that Ducati had been working with for years - so no skin of their nose at all.

If the bike doesn't turn as well as the Honda or Suzuki - it ain't because they're not listening to the riders. It's because they
are limited by the parameters of the L-4 engine design. It's taken years to develop work-arounds and if Dovi's results the last
few seasons are any indication, they've done pretty well. I'd still love to see what Stoner could do on the current iteration
and hear his comparison to the Ducs he rode in his time. They've come light years.

Watching those numerous last lap duels between Dovi and Marquez these last few seasons have been major highlights
in a decade of great racing. At this point - any perceived deficiency is not with the bike, it's the riders. People seem to
think that it's the bike that isn't winning the race, but as Dovi has evidenced, it's the rider. Look at how few races have
been won on the Honda by anyone other than Marquez.
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Last edited by Keshav; March 10th, 2019 at 04:27 PM.
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March 10th, 2019, 04:54 PM   #56
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My understanding is that the the "spec" ECU, while perhaps less manipulable is no different than the Magnetti Marelli that Ducati had been working with for years - so no skin of their nose at all.
It is the same hardware but software was very, very different for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
If the bike doesn't turn as well as the Honda or Suzuki - it ain't because they're not listening to the riders. It's because they
are limited by the parameters of the L-4 engine design. It's taken years to develop work-arounds and if Dovi's results the last
few seasons are any indication, they've done pretty well. I'd still love to see what Stoner could do on the current iteration
and hear his comparison to the Ducs he rode in his time. They've come light years.
I agree, I was being ironic with him.
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March 10th, 2019, 06:15 PM   #57
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Since as all of you are saying no sympathy for Honda. Why when they were innovating with their bespoke electronics it was cheating to you? They out engineer ktm in moto3 with their engine, you all call it cheating! You cant have it both both ways.

Dorka introduce the spec "dummy" ecu to so call reel in cost and level the playing field. This was done to get ducati closer the Honda & yamaha. HRC had to go out & higher a bunch of dumb down magneti marelli techs to lower their level to match ducati. While yamaha failed to do just that. I've always believe this spec ecu was introduce to help EU brands at the expense of the Japanese.
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March 10th, 2019, 06:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
No sympathy for Honda, who have often had their way in motogp, with the whole 800 formula reputedly their idea because of fit with their engineering philosophy, while Ducati when they were tiny Ducati Corse, pretty much a backyard operation, had rules changed against them. Different than WSBK, where they definitely benefited from favourable treatment, particularly when the fabulous flying Flammini brothers were running the show.
The spec ecu was done for who again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am not sure how committed VW/Audi are to Ducati and GP bike racing, probably less than Honda are, but they are a much bigger company than Honda, and could obviously outspend them if they chose, although Honda still doubtless have the advantage as far as bike related engineering resources go.

How many times have Ducati changed ownership in comparison to Honda? The Volkswagen group is still reeling from Diesel gate expense. Tons of junk cars are parked globally in remote lots waiting to be dispose of. So should they spend money on racing or deal with their environmental cleanup? Just last year there was talks about selling Ducati.
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March 10th, 2019, 06:39 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by gui22a View Post
Yeah, because when Honda is pissed off, they find a way to change the rules through Dorna. You know, the japanese factory bosses are super, super honest, so, in order to not infringe any rule, they make the rule fit their will. Much more elegant.



HRC is never in trouble with the rulebook because as I said, they are the ones who write it anytime they want. Keep the rules in check.



LoL... what? It seems to many people of the paddock that the Ducati is just a proper bike. Circuits and tracks are not made only of curves and corners. Racing is a compromise. Don't think for a second that you can just find a magical solution to make a bike turn, brake, get into the corner, save tire, accelerates, and keep super-speedy in the corner, all perfect at the same time in any circuit.

Suzuki's strength is mid-corner speed, we know that, but at the expense of another things. For example, to have more speed in straight they need more HP's, and the extra power will cause another problems in the bike as tire consumption, turning, engine braking, corner entry, etc. This is not Playstation my friend... Remember, real racing is a short blanket, a compromisse. There is no such thing like "best bike on the grid", since it depends on the circuit characteristics, the rider style, and so on. It could be named "most balanced bike on the grid" but never the "best".

I saw a lot of people talking about new Honda engine, but mark my words: it's just a different engine, more approached to the former screamer, some kind of intermediate. You can hear the engine, it's not the same firing order. That brings more revs and more speed at straight, but will cause more threats to traction and for tire consumption.
LOL really? Everything goes thru stages of development. Suzuki will find the right combination of speed and power. HRC have used both big bang & screamer. Is it a problem to alternate from one to the other? How long now has it been since ducati have had this problem to turn in corners? Look at the weld quality on their bike in comparison to the Japanese. Lipstick on a pig does not make it anything more than a pig. I stand by my comment, they need to learn how to make a proper bike. They have gotten better over the years. But there is still room for improvement. If they ever mange to get that bike to turn, the Japanese will have something to worry about. At the moment they dont.
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March 10th, 2019, 06:55 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
Since as all of you are saying no sympathy for Honda. Why when they were innovating with their bespoke electronics it was cheating to you? They out engineer ktm in moto3 with their engine, you all call it cheating! You cant have it both both ways.

Dorka introduce the spec "dummy" ecu to so call reel in cost and level the playing field. This was done to get ducati closer the Honda & yamaha. HRC had to go out & higher a bunch of dumb down magneti marelli techs to lower their level to match ducati. While yamaha failed to do just that. I've always believe this spec ecu was introduce to help EU brands at the expense of the Japanese.
Disagree. Nobody here ever implied Honda was "cheating". The general sentiment was that they were simply out-spending everybody. There are good points on both sides of the arguments for and against spec electronics. Everybody wants to see innovation; conversely - from the human point of interest - people want mechanical parity that allows the most talented riders to shine. For me - I love the equipment, but years from now - I won't be talking much to my grandkids about a particular machine - near as much as I will be talking about the great riders.

Personally - I could give a shit whether EU companies or Japanese companies per se dominate. It just gets boring when it's only one company with all the advantages. Especially when longtime competitors like Suzuki and Kawasaki who've created bikes that took great riders to championships - drop out of the series because they've been outspent. Variety as the saying goes is the spice of life. How fucking great is it to see a Honda, a Suzuki, a Yamaha a Ducati etc all potentially vying for the podium throughout the race? This kind of parity is making for many more races decided in the last moments of the race. I loved watching Stoner run away on the shitty Ducati and was blown away when Marquez dominated the way he did because they were phenoms - but after a while, if there's no battles, no trading paint, it's fucking boring.

Again, from the human point of view - I'm much more taken with innovation that is the direct product of human intelligence and imaginative thinking, than innovation that is the product of armies of lab-coated dorks programming football size fields of supercomputers for the sake of shaving off three thousandths of a second a lap.

There are no victims here. When I watch races like today's I feel like I've won the lottery.
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