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October 30th, 2018, 09:21 AM   #1
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So who is the GOAT

Much as it annoys me, there can be only 1 goat and he leads at the moment by quite a margin. In my opinion its Mike Hailwood, but sadly he loses to his arch foe on a few occasions, yet as you will see at the bottom he only comes 4th, yet I am pleased to see that the person I do loathe comes a lowly 7th
I'm sure certain people will rubbish this as they can't stand the fact their man is an also ran.


Rider Wins Wins per year
1. Giacomo Agostini 122 (1965 – 1977) 13 years 9.384
2. Valentino Rossi 115 (1996 – 2018) 22 years 5.272
3. Angel Nieto 90 (1969 – 1985) 17 years 5.294
4. Mike Hailwood 76 (1959 – 1967) 9 years 8.444
5. Jorge Lorenzo 65 (2003 – 2018) 16 years 4.533
6. Marc Marquez 65 (2010 – 2018) 9 years 8.625
7. Michael Doohan 54 (1990 – 1998) 9 years 6
8. Dani Pedrosa 54 (2002 – 2018) 17 years 4.5
= Phil Read 52 (1961 – 1975) 14 years 3.176
10. Jim Redman 45 (1961 – 1966) 5 years 9
= Casey Stoner 45 (2003 – 2012) 9 years 4.5



So looking at it like that the GOAT is Giacomo Agostini followed in order of wins per year.
Jim Redman
Marc Marquez
Mike Hailwood
Michael Doohan
Angel Nieto
Valentino Rossi
Jorge Lorenzo
Casey Stoner
Dani Pedrosa
Phil Read
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October 30th, 2018, 09:59 AM   #2
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Numbers are not opinable so I guess this will also be a thread about personal thoughts.

Here are mine:

Purest talent in the history of the sport: Casey Stoner.

Most "360 degrees" talented/win oriented rider in the history of the sport: Marc Marquez.



I'll come back with more details about why I think this later
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October 30th, 2018, 10:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo View Post
Much as it annoys me, there can be only 1 goat and he leads at the moment by quite a margin. In my opinion its Mike Hailwood, but sadly he loses to his arch foe on a few occasions, yet as you will see at the bottom he only comes 4th, yet I am pleased to see that the person I do loathe comes a lowly 7th
I'm sure certain people will rubbish this as they can't stand the fact their man is an also ran.


Rider Wins Wins per year
1. Giacomo Agostini 122 (1965 – 1977) 13 years 9.384
2. Valentino Rossi 115 (1996 – 2018) 22 years 5.272
3. Angel Nieto 90 (1969 – 1985) 17 years 5.294
4. Mike Hailwood 76 (1959 – 1967) 9 years 8.444
5. Jorge Lorenzo 65 (2003 – 2018) 16 years 4.533
6. Marc Marquez 65 (2010 – 2018) 9 years 8.625
7. Michael Doohan 54 (1990 – 1998) 9 years 6
8. Dani Pedrosa 54 (2002 – 2018) 17 years 4.5
= Phil Read 52 (1961 – 1975) 14 years 3.176
10. Jim Redman 45 (1961 – 1966) 5 years 9
= Casey Stoner 45 (2003 – 2012) 9 years 4.5



So looking at it like that the GOAT is Giacomo Agostini followed in order of wins per year.
Jim Redman
Marc Marquez
Mike Hailwood
Michael Doohan
Angel Nieto
Valentino Rossi
Jorge Lorenzo
Casey Stoner
Dani Pedrosa
Phil Read
I just can’t put Ago number one knowing that he had advantages that can’t be understated. Factory twin cylinder bikes against privateer single cylinder bikes that literally would be like running a Moto 2 bike against GP machines today. Then you had Rossi with a bike advantage, nothing close to the advantage Ago had but an advantage nonetheless , and the Saturday night special tires again cannot he understated. To me it’s between Marquez and Stoner with Marc getting the nod in numbers and longevity. Spec tire, spec ecu’s, an almost spec engine with the bore being set, the rules are setup to not allow domination but he does anyway. Been following the sport for 50 years and no one I’ve seen rides a bike like Marquez.
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October 30th, 2018, 03:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holypuck View Post
Numbers are not opinable so I guess this will also be a thread about personal thoughts.

Here are mine:

Purest talent in the history of the sport: Casey Stoner.

Most "360 degrees" talented/win oriented rider in the history of the sport: Marc Marquez.
This is where Im at also.
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October 30th, 2018, 04:01 PM   #5
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I think it's pretty hard to seperate a few of them. But from what I've read Hailwood is an absoloute standout amongst the early guys including Ago, who has said that if Hailwood didn't go to Honda he(Ago) wouldn't have won much.

I don't think Rossi is the GOAT despite being a great rider. I think his records against Lorenzo, Stoner and a young pre-prime Marquez hurts him alongside with not being able to show the same dominance as Doohan despite similar and at times more advantages disqualifies him from being the GOAT.

Marquez is almost there and I'd argue another title or two probably puts him there given competition and new rules etc. he's arguably already the best ever.
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October 30th, 2018, 09:35 PM   #6
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Nice comments, TBO I can see MM at the top in the next 2 years, yes some of the others did have unfair advantages.
I believe though that even if everything had been spec as it is now from 1960 on then the data would be different but I don't think that it would be much different.
Marc will be the GOAT for many years to come, he's just outshone everyone with his antics since he reached the premier class.

On another note, I don't like this modern racing much, its become a one size fits all, bit like british schools in fact where nobody is allowed to fail.
I'd rather see a budget being the way to go and the manufacturers can only spend that, it would lead to a far more interesting outcome imo.
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October 31st, 2018, 02:05 AM   #7
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Hailwood for me, he won Grand Prix on MV, Honda, MZ, Norton and Ducati, 125, 250, 350, 500, singles, twins 4 cylinders etc. Races were longer and the tracks more challenging in those days too.

It is subjective though as different eras and all, I do believe you need to be fitter these days.
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October 31st, 2018, 02:30 AM   #8
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OK, well here goes but at the same time, each person's criteria will vary.

For me as a Doohan tragic I so want to say Mick and not just because of his wins but in large part due to what he overcame following those early injuries and the sheer likelihood that were it not for the dutch doctor, he would have had 6 titles (remembering the point gap at the time as a fit Doohan would have accumulated enough points). But no matter how hard I try, how much I want it, I cannot say that he is the GOAT.

I do not go with Stoner either as whilst he was for me likely one of the very best outright motorcycle riders and was able to ride poor bikes to great results, longevity is against him but I also fully admit that I like that about Stoner. He came, he saw, he conquered and he went fuck you all, I have had enough, and left.

Marquez, well he is well on his way as I simply cannot ignore his ability to race, his ability to dominate or his outright results. He is brutal and has dominated on good bikes and not so good bikes but man, he is only 25 and has so much more to achieve. The guy is easily the best of the last 15 or 20 or so years and I say that with no disrespect intended to others, but for me Marquez is just that bit better and it scares me that he has so much more to give and so much more drive. In saying that, I also fully expect that in a few years Marquez will be spoken of as the GOAT, he is just too good not to be considered.

Nope, for me it is Mike the Bike. Never saw much of him (not televised in Australia) but I did review and do enjoy reading of him, his achievements.

I would give a very honorable mention here to a rider such as Freddie Spencer who I always rate as a mercurial but flawed genius, a man who achieved the double in a season but like Stoner, longevity is against him.

Of course, the yellow elephant in the room is Rossi but like many others I cannot see him as the GOAT for my own reasons, but primarily I just think that there have been better riders and better racers across the years, not just those above either.
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October 31st, 2018, 03:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
OK, well here goes but at the same time, each person's criteria will vary.

For me as a Doohan tragic I so want to say Mick and not just because of his wins but in large part due to what he overcame following those early injuries and the sheer likelihood that were it not for the dutch doctor, he would have had 6 titles (remembering the point gap at the time as a fit Doohan would have accumulated enough points). But no matter how hard I try, how much I want it, I cannot say that he is the GOAT.

I do not go with Stoner either as whilst he was for me likely one of the very best outright motorcycle riders and was able to ride poor bikes to great results, longevity is against him but I also fully admit that I like that about Stoner. He came, he saw, he conquered and he went fuck you all, I have had enough, and left.

Marquez, well he is well on his way as I simply cannot ignore his ability to race, his ability to dominate or his outright results. He is brutal and has dominated on good bikes and not so good bikes but man, he is only 25 and has so much more to achieve. The guy is easily the best of the last 15 or 20 or so years and I say that with no disrespect intended to others, but for me Marquez is just that bit better and it scares me that he has so much more to give and so much more drive. In saying that, I also fully expect that in a few years Marquez will be spoken of as the GOAT, he is just too good not to be considered.

Nope, for me it is Mike the Bike. Never saw much of him (not televised in Australia) but I did review and do enjoy reading of him, his achievements.

I would give a very honorable mention here to a rider such as Freddie Spencer who I always rate as a mercurial but flawed genius, a man who achieved the double in a season but like Stoner, longevity is against him.

Of course, the yellow elephant in the room is Rossi but like many others I cannot see him as the GOAT for my own reasons, but primarily I just think that there have been better riders and better racers across the years, not just those above either.
Up to the bit about Mike the Bike, I agree 100%.

I don't necessarily disagree about Hailwood. Just never witnessed him myself. I think it's difficult to compare times you have witnessed to those you haven't.
That's why an "all time" greatest is near impossible to decide. Makes for good discussion though.
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October 31st, 2018, 04:25 AM   #10
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It seems very likely it will soon be MM.

Not quite yet perhaps though.
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