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October 31st, 2018, 08:50 PM   #21
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GOAT, there can be only one, by definition. Having 10 goats is having a herd. Need a shepherd ...
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November 1st, 2018, 01:27 AM   #22
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Quote:
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He was world champion on 2 and 4 wheels.
Great engineer as well.
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November 1st, 2018, 01:39 AM   #23
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I have to disagree about Mike Hailwood. I always held John Surtees in much greater esteem.

Hailwood was what I would call a "playboy". He followed the world circuit when it was really nothing more than a pastime for those who could not get a real job. Sponsorship was not what it is now, back then. And even then didnt his dad fund him? The worlds best riders were not on the world circuit then. I remember him coming over to race a local race here, and being thoroughly outshone. Ago came out here and did way better than Hailwood.

Bit surprised nobody mentions Surtees .... he had class. And skill. And he was a racer.
Mike oozed natural ability, he admitted himself he knew very little about bikes but he could ride them ANY of them fast, the outright lap record he set on the Isle of Man in 1967 stood for about 10 years.

You must be hard to please if you don't consider Ago, Redman and Read amongst the worlds best riders.

Besides regardless of being the son of a wealthy man, money doesn't buy talent. If that was the case Karel Abraham would be the greatest of all time by now.
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November 1st, 2018, 04:37 AM   #24
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As I said, GOAT means different things to different people as afterall, greatness is in the eye of the beholder (although after a race that could well be beer holder) which all means that really, whilst we may disagree with some people that person cannot really be wrong as it is afterall, their opinion.

I rate some riders far higher than their stats would show (I seriously rate McCoy for example) and then we have others with good stats who, whilst good riders may not be in discussions for other reasons.

My thoughts only.
I agree that stats is not necessary the best benchmark except if you compare them with their team mates only. As to who is the GOAT I still believe there is no real gray area in that definition of what that means, to me, if one stays within the same racing discipline i.e. road racing, motocross, trial, etc. I think it is the person who is the fastest and the most efficient with the equipment given to them. For instance, going to F1 because I a bit more familiar with it, I consider Fernando Alonso one of the all time greats because of his record against some pretty good team mates who he left in the dust (except Lewis Hamilton) who also is one of the GOATs.
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November 1st, 2018, 04:41 AM   #25
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What does GOAT mean? Define that, and I'll be able to answer.
Well apart from the obvious, its a generational thing to me, ie it changes every 25-30 years regardless of held previously so if you apply that rule at a 25 year gap our current one is 1993 to 2018 then Marquez leads by a M1 (motorway) distance.
1968 to 1993 Then yes its Mike Hailwood for me.
1943 to 1968 Giacomo Agostini.

There have been many notable riders all across the years but these are IMO the stand out guys, the GOATS as you might put it.
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November 1st, 2018, 04:50 AM   #26
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Well apart from the obvious, its a generational thing to me, ie it changes every 25-30 years regardless of held previously so if you apply that rule at a 25 year gap our current one is 1993 to 2018 then Marquez leads by a M1 (motorway) distance.
1968 to 1993 Then yes its Mike Hailwood for me.
1943 to 1968 Giacomo Agostini.

There have been many notable riders all across the years but these are IMO the stand out guys, the GOATS as you might put it.
I am not disagreeing with you but don't you think a span of 25-30 years is too long? Under normal circumstances that is two generations of riders who do not ride against each other and the technology and riding techniques change as well. Wouldn't a 10 to 15 year time span be a bit more reasonable? I will not rate riders as I don't know past riders very well.
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November 1st, 2018, 05:15 AM   #27
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Rossi was generally and not unreasonably considered the GOAT at the end of the 2009 season after the 7th/9th title, even by some current naysayers such as me, having mastered all bikes and classes he had encountered.

If he had retired then it would be arguable whether MM has surpassed or will surpass him. I think with the Ducati adventure and 9 fruitless seasons it is hard to see him as the GOAT now, somewhat unfairly in the latter case given he encountered MM in his youthful prime after all his own great achievements. His choice however, and if and more likely when MM matches or surpasses him for title wins it is hard for me to see how MM can fail to be rated ahead of him unless he proceeds to something similar to Rossi's tenure at Ducati, he is now the one who has succeeded on every bike in every class.
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November 1st, 2018, 05:24 AM   #28
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Mike oozed natural ability, he admitted himself he knew very little about bikes but he could ride them ANY of them fast, the outright lap record he set on the Isle of Man in 1967 stood for about 10 years.

You must be hard to please if you don't consider Ago, Redman and Read amongst the worlds best riders.

Besides regardless of being the son of a wealthy man, money doesn't buy talent. If that was the case Karel Abraham would be the greatest of all time by now.
Many came to Aus. to test themselves against guys that would never have bothered to travel to enter a "world championship" back then. Surtees came for fun and was competitive in classic racing. Ago gave it a good shot. But Hailwood was "meh".







Saw Hailwood in oerson and he was not that competitive.


Mind you he was on a Duc. Lol.
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November 1st, 2018, 07:17 AM   #29
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I'm surprised no one mentioned Eddie Lawson. He tamed the 1989 NSR and was great on everything he rode.
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November 1st, 2018, 09:02 AM   #30
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ok First of all it is next to near impossible to compare a person in any sport from one era to another. very simply stated you cant compare jim brown to say barry sanders. the game was totally different and so were the athletes. jim brown was as big as defensive lineman back then. today would he fair the same most people doubt it.

the way to do it is not compare each others stats to the competition of the era and see how they dominated that era.

for example you wouldnt compare joe dimagio to ken griffey jr. you would compare dimagio to say ted williams and see by how much they dominated their own era and compare griffey to his.

imo thats the best way to do it. that being said i always think the more current athlete makes advances over the previous one. its a given technology and training and competition are just better. the goat right now is Marc Marquez end of story.
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Last edited by mark419ny; November 1st, 2018 at 09:12 AM.
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