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September 17th, 2018, 07:12 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Riders don't "develop" shit. They give good or bad feedback, period. All this genius rider development talk is nothing more than hyperbolic promo softsoap for the ravenously story-hungry press. This kind of small-talk press-kit nonsense has informational value equivalent to the responses to dumbasses who walk along pitlane and ask, so what is your strategy for the race today? The fan-bois eat it up. End of.
That's what I mean by development. Precise and clear feedback.
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September 17th, 2018, 07:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Ahhhhh no.
I said with a control tyre without Lorenzo. The scores on the board for Rossi though, no special tyres = no longer development god.
Rossi left Yamaha, Yamaha still championship winning bike with Lorenzo.
Lorenzo leaves Yamaha, Yamaha goes backwards and reverts to the last chassis he had input in.
Rossi goes to Ducati, Ducati goes backwards so far it would be another 5-6 seasons until they win another race.
Lorenzo goes to Ducati and Ducati in the time he is there becomes the clear best bike on the grid.
Ducati went backwards because they were arrogant bastards who believed their bike was a winner because it won a world championship despite the fact that only one rider won regularly on the thing and that rider constantly said Ducati didn't listen to him.

The master stroke was bringing in the genius Gigi Dall'Igna the man behind Aprilias successful 125 and 250 GP bikes as well as the awesome RSV4 superbike and has now created a bike that other riders can now win on.
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September 17th, 2018, 08:08 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Lorenzo leaves Yamaha, Yamaha goes backwards and reverts to the last chassis he had input in.
You're making many assumptions. Was the 2016 chassis a product of Lorenzo's feedback? Was the 2017's shortcomings a consequence of Rossi's feedback? Pure speculation.

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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Lorenzo goes to Ducati and Ducati in the time he is there becomes the clear best bike on the grid.
Are you really suggesting that Dovi's pace last year was due to Lorenzo? Why was it not Stoner and Pirro's feedback? Why was it not Dovi's? Why was it not Gigi's moment of inspiration? It is impossible that Lorenzo's feedback could've been processed within three races. It's just not how GP development works.

For what it's worth, I think Lorenzo's contribution has helped in the second year of the bike's development. But Dovi's 2017 season had nothing to do with JL.

Anyway, someone who thinks he knows more than Furusawa is obviously too proud to discuss this matter in a sensible manner.
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Last edited by RCV600RR; September 17th, 2018 at 08:36 AM.
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September 17th, 2018, 12:23 PM   #54
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I have no problem with Gigi being the reason that Ducati are doing so awesome. However Ducati have come out and said that Lorenzo's technical feedback has been extremely valuable. And Dovis brilliance other than Qatar which is a track that bike normally does well at didn't show until after a third of the way through the season by which time Lorenzo's feedback would've been implemented.

Ducati didn't listen to Stoner at their own peril, but to pretend that they didn't move mountains to give Rossi everything he wanted is ridiculous. Nothing proving it more than Rossi getting the twin bar frame he demanded. IMO a huge problem during his time there is that he demanded everything now without any real plan to fix the bike other than just throwing new parts at it and hope something sticks. Of course don't forget Stoner managed to win races on the same bike as Rossi had in 2011.

I don't pretend to know more than Furusawa however I question how much of Rossi's development genius was down to Michelin and later Bridgestone building a tyre to suit him and his bike. I then point to his failures as lead rider at both Yamaha and Ducati with a control tyre which according to his fans means nothing however those same people threw insults at Stoner for being the cause of the problem at Ducati. The fact is he levelled all the blame for last years bike at Vinales, when he got the chassis he demanded after the tyres he demanded, the results got worse. For this year Yamaha have reverted back to the chassis that Lorenzo last had input on and now there is no complaints about the chassis. Just the electronics and engine which obviously he doesn't deserve any blame for. However in 2015 Marquez was apportioned part of the blame for choosing the wrong engine for the season. The problems Yamaha experience at the moment are their own doing but I would argue that is because they chose Rossi over Lorenzo in what I would describe as a Ducati moment.
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September 17th, 2018, 03:22 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I have no problem with Gigi being the reason that Ducati are doing so awesome. However Ducati have come out and said that Lorenzo's technical feedback has been extremely valuable. And Dovis brilliance other than Qatar which is a track that bike normally does well at didn't show until after a third of the way through the season by which time Lorenzo's feedback would've been implemented.

Ducati didn't listen to Stoner at their own peril, but to pretend that they didn't move mountains to give Rossi everything he wanted is ridiculous. Nothing proving it more than Rossi getting the twin bar frame he demanded. IMO a huge problem during his time there is that he demanded everything now without any real plan to fix the bike other than just throwing new parts at it and hope something sticks. Of course don't forget Stoner managed to win races on the same bike as Rossi had in 2011.

I don't pretend to know more than Furusawa however I question how much of Rossi's development genius was down to Michelin and later Bridgestone building a tyre to suit him and his bike. I then point to his failures as lead rider at both Yamaha and Ducati with a control tyre which according to his fans means nothing however those same people threw insults at Stoner for being the cause of the problem at Ducati. The fact is he levelled all the blame for last years bike at Vinales, when he got the chassis he demanded after the tyres he demanded, the results got worse. For this year Yamaha have reverted back to the chassis that Lorenzo last had input on and now there is no complaints about the chassis. Just the electronics and engine which obviously he doesn't deserve any blame for. However in 2015 Marquez was apportioned part of the blame for choosing the wrong engine for the season. The problems Yamaha experience at the moment are their own doing but I would argue that is because they chose Rossi over Lorenzo in what I would describe as a Ducati moment.
You're grasping at straws to support a biased and predisposed belief. Did anyone at Ducati state that Lorenzo's efforts (less than two seasons worth) at Ducati surpasses Dovi's years there? No - of course not. Whatever Lorenzo's accomplishments are at Ducati, they can be but a thin veneer laid atop the already excellent platform he inherited, the outcome all the hard work done by Dovi and Gigi since 2013.
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Last edited by Keshav; September 17th, 2018 at 03:53 PM.
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September 17th, 2018, 04:20 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
You're grasping at straws to support a biased and predisposed belief. Did anyone at Ducati state that Lorenzo's efforts (less than two seasons worth) at Ducati surpasses Dovi's years there? No - of course not. Whatever Lorenzo's accomplishments are at Ducati, they can be but a thin veneer laid atop the already excellent platform he inherited, the outcome all the hard work done by Dovi and Gigi since 2013.
I tend to think as I gather do you that all talk of development by current GP riders is largely hokum, particularly given how little testing actual GP riders are allowed to do these days.

Even in Mick Doohan's day though he said his main role was to stop the Honda engineers from over "improving" his bike which probably still holds true; Suzuki are perhaps conveniently blaming Iannone for OKing their current bike at a time when Rins was out injured.

I would put most of Ducati's improvement down to Gigi; the debate as to who between Lorenzo and Dovi contributed more is one the riders are having themselves, but I will say Gigi himself is on the record as saying Lorenzo's input was valuable and Gigi wanted him kept even before he started to win on the bike.

Last edited by michaelm; September 17th, 2018 at 05:01 PM.
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September 17th, 2018, 05:40 PM   #57
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I tend to think as I gather do you that all talk of development by current GP riders is largely hokum, particularly given how little testing actual GP riders are allowed to do these days.

Even in Mick Doohan's day though he said his main role was to stop the Honda engineers from over "improving" his bike which probably still holds true; Suzuki are perhaps conveniently blaming Iannone for OKing their current bike at a time when Rins was out injured.

I would put most of Ducati's improvement down to Gigi; the debate as to who between Lorenzo and Dovi contributed more is one the riders are having themselves, but I will say Gigi himself is on the record as saying Lorenzo's input was valuable and Gigi wanted him kept even before he started to win on the bike.
Twas well known Gigi's affinity for Jorge, long before he came aboard. Naturally he would promote Jorge's interests and take any opportunity to speak well of him. Limited tho the testing hours may be there's little doubt that data gleaned from all practice and race time telemetry and Dovi's remarks as to which changes are or were not helpful were of value.

Last edited by Keshav; September 18th, 2018 at 10:59 AM.
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September 18th, 2018, 06:44 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Ducati didn't listen to Stoner at their own peril, but to pretend that they didn't move mountains to give Rossi everything he wanted is ridiculous.
Who said otherwise? They did move mountains, but the understeer issue was unresolved (until Gigi brought his all-new bike to Ducati in 2015).

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Nothing proving it more than Rossi getting the twin bar frame he demanded. IMO a huge problem during his time there is that he demanded everything now without any real plan to fix the bike other than just throwing new parts at it and hope something sticks.
No-one really knows what Rossi did and didn't demand. It's just conjecture.

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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Of course don't forget Stoner managed to win races on the same bike as Rossi had in 2011.
Again, I'm not disputing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I don't pretend to know more than Furusawa however I question how much of Rossi's development genius was down to Michelin and later Bridgestone building a tyre to suit him and his bike.
But he won a title on a control tyre. He also started from scratch in 2008 with the Yamaha never having been developed for the Bridgestones. Within a few races, he was winning, and he ended up dominating that title against a Ducati-Bridgestone combination that had been developed together since 2003.

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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
those same people threw insults at Stoner for being the cause of the problem at Ducati.
They were obviously wrong.
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