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July 6th, 2018, 02:25 PM   #81
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I too think he is better than Stoner, or at least better over his entire period in MotoGP, it being hard to be better than Stoner was in 2007 and 2011, particularly the former season. I don't agree with the closer field/more even equipment argument though, which is true for 2011 and 2012 but not imo for the other 5 years of Stoner's premier class career given Stoner in those years was either riding a Ducati or for the lowliest and newest satellite team on the grid on remaindered Michelins.
I think Stoner's 2007 title was the most impressive of the titles won in the 4-stroke era. But he did ultimately leave titles on the table. Of course MM's 2014 campaign was impressive as he demolished the field. His 2011 title, he had no real competition for it, and ran away with the title against a field that had no answer nor any true competitor. I do think a strike against Stoner was 2012 when he chose not to ride after the Indy accident...while choosing to race in Indy. He just showed up for Phillip Island and did nothing else of note. I get he had surgery, but so did Lorenzo in 2013 and he was right back out there in spite of the broken collarbone and nearly managed to win the title.
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July 6th, 2018, 02:40 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
I think Stoner's 2007 title was the most impressive of the titles won in the 4-stroke era. But he did ultimately leave titles on the table. Of course MM's 2014 campaign was impressive as he demolished the field. His 2011 title, he had no real competition for it, and ran away with the title against a field that had no answer nor any true competitor. I do think a strike against Stoner was 2012 when he chose not to ride after the Indy accident...while choosing to race in Indy. He just showed up for Phillip Island and did nothing else of note. I get he had surgery, but so did Lorenzo in 2013 and he was right back out there in spite of the broken collarbone and nearly managed to win the title.
Not to take anything from Lorenzo, what he did was amazing, but Stoner had total ankle reconstruction, slightly different than a couple screws in a clavicle.
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July 6th, 2018, 06:16 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
I think Stoner's 2007 title was the most impressive of the titles won in the 4-stroke era. But he did ultimately leave titles on the table. Of course MM's 2014 campaign was impressive as he demolished the field. His 2011 title, he had no real competition for it, and ran away with the title against a field that had no answer nor any true competitor. I do think a strike against Stoner was 2012 when he chose not to ride after the Indy accident...while choosing to race in Indy. He just showed up for Phillip Island and did nothing else of note. I get he had surgery, but so did Lorenzo in 2013 and he was right back out there in spite of the broken collarbone and nearly managed to win the title.
As Povol said he had surgery and probably wasn’t allowed to weight bear let alone ride. Lorenzo riding 2 days after fracturing his clavicle and having it plated was one of the toughest sporting feats ever but you don’t walk on your clavicle.

My point about 2011 was not about the level of difficulty he had in winning but that he rode basically perfectly with hardly a riding error; he could easily have won 2 more races but for factors unrelated to his riding, ie a Rossi torpedo at Jerez and the tragedy at Sepang.

Last edited by michaelm; July 6th, 2018 at 06:22 PM.
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July 6th, 2018, 07:34 PM   #84
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As Povol said he had surgery and probably wasnít allowed to weight bear let alone ride. Lorenzo riding 2 days after fracturing his clavicle and having it plated was one of the toughest sporting feats ever but you donít walk on your clavicle.

My point about 2011 was not about the level of difficulty he had in winning but that he rode basically perfectly with hardly a riding error; he could easily have won 2 more races but for factors unrelated to his riding, ie a Rossi torpedo at Jerez and the tragedy at Sepang.
He also podiumed at Shanghai 08 after breaking both ankles.
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July 6th, 2018, 08:08 PM   #85
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He also podiumed at Shanghai 08 after breaking both ankles.
Yes, I remember that well, and he also came back to win 3
titles after several massive high sides and multiple concussions that year, sufficient to put his whole career in some jeopardy.
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July 7th, 2018, 04:55 PM   #86
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Ok, but as much as I always disliked him, Biaggi in his prime was a world-class rider. One of the very best. Ask Kanemoto about him... There is a reason why Lorenzo considered him as his model. And Pedrosa also has consistently been one of the best riders out there, for so many years. Mighty Honda designed an entire new formula around him "to beat Valentino Rossi", and failed. Hayden himself was hailed as the next rider from America who could terminate Rossi's domination. And they all rode a factory Honda, not a quirky Ducati or a Suzuki.



Dismissing great riders and bikes to implicitly dismiss Rossi, is a lame and partisan proposition. And anyway, can't blame a rider for not beating someone who wasn't there. Then, Rossi did beat Stoner and Lorenzo in 2008 and 2009, didn't he.


Rossi rode great in 09, but Lorenzo was coming back from a nightmare crash fest of a debut and had been considering whether to continue. Also Lorenzo was also a complete rookie on Bridgestones, whilst Rossi was fully up to speed on them.
As Iíve said Rossi rode great and could only beat what was put in front of him, but 09 was not the strongest line up of competitors.
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July 8th, 2018, 12:18 PM   #87
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I donít know about GOAT, but he could certainly pass for a horse with those teeth.

hey come on.

Out of all the things you could criticize of him, you chose the only one that is objectively flawless.

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July 8th, 2018, 10:23 PM   #88
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Rossi rode great in 09, but Lorenzo was coming back from a nightmare crash fest of a debut and had been considering whether to continue. Also Lorenzo was also a complete rookie on Bridgestones, whilst Rossi was fully up to speed on them.
As Iíve said Rossi rode great and could only beat what was put in front of him, but 09 was not the strongest line up of competitors.
Funny that some of you people bring up this kind of "yes, but..." reasoning only when judging Rossi's victories. I never heard from the same people that, say, Lorenzo's 2010 title is flawed because Rossi had a shoulder injury and a nightmare crash; or that Marquez' rookie title is flawed because Stoner would surely have won that year, had he cared to ride. All those speculations are idle, as there will never be any proof.

Sports have to be based on the simple fact that who wins, wins. No asterisks attached. Of course you are fully entitled to base your personal judgments on whatever standards you like, but at least apply them equally to everybody: otherwise it's called a double standard...
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July 8th, 2018, 10:32 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
Funny that some of you people bring up this kind of "yes, but..." reasoning only when judging Rossi's victories. I never heard from the same people that, say, Lorenzo's 2010 title is flawed because Rossi had a shoulder injury and a nightmare crash; or that Marquez' rookie title is flawed because Stoner would surely have won that year, had he cared to ride. All those speculations are idle, as there will never be any proof.

Sports have to be based on the simple fact that who wins, wins. No asterisks attached. Of course you are fully entitled to base your personal judgments on whatever standards you like, but at least apply them equally to everybody: otherwise it's called a double standard...
What if there were no bias or speculative posts my friend? Iíll tell you what if... this forum would shrink by 80%.
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July 8th, 2018, 10:47 PM   #90
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Funny that some of you people bring up this kind of "yes, but..." reasoning only when judging Rossi's victories. I never heard from the same people that, say, Lorenzo's 2010 title is flawed because Rossi had a shoulder injury and a nightmare crash; or that Marquez' rookie title is flawed because Stoner would surely have won that year, had he cared to ride. All those speculations are idle, as there will never be any proof.

Sports have to be based on the simple fact that who wins, wins. No asterisks attached. Of course you are fully entitled to base your personal judgments on whatever standards you like, but at least apply them equally to everybody: otherwise it's called a double standard...
True, but, out of curiosity, if you got all the contenders for the GOAT, in their primes and on equal machinery, who do you think would win a race?
I realise that it's almost entirely subjective but who would you put your money on?
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