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July 5th, 2018, 11:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Bern1 View Post
As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
I think the find the limit by crashing thing is why I still place Stoner as the GOAT, but Marc. Is a very close second atm.
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July 5th, 2018, 11:14 PM   #72
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There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard.
That's a very good overview of the tire situation. I do feel that the primary drivers, as have been said, in bumping up Vale's win numbers are a mixture of the level of competition he was up against and also (and let's face it, there's no denying this), at the start of the 990 season there was no debate whatsoever that Vale was on the best bike- for several years.
Whilst we can debate 'the best bike on the grid' these days, it was a no contest for several years in the 990 era.
Having said that Vale's move to Yamaha validates him as one of the best of all time and it's impossible to realistically discount him from the GOAT discussion.
For me I try to think of the GOAT as if you got all your contenders, in their prime, on the same bike/tires then who would win?
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July 6th, 2018, 12:10 AM   #73
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The SNS were made off of data given to them by Burgess and had the stiff side construction that Rossi preferred . The tires Elias used to beat Rossi were given to him because Pedrosa couldn’t use them that weekend. It was a one time occurrence and like magic, Elias won the only GP race of his career. There were 4-5 teams that got the SNS but make no mistake, every crew chief didn’t get to order what his rider preferred. Even though they didn’t get to special order, the SNS were far superior to the shit that came out of the back of the truck. Those tires according to some riders could be months old leftovers from previous rounds. It was a huge advantage.
To say nothing of the selection factor. Stoner documented this in his bio, saying how Rossi and the bigger names, at a minimum, got the tires they requested, whereas less favoured riders got whatever mismatched crap Michelin threw at them. If Rossi demanded a specific tire, he got it. Other riders, could end up with a front that was biased on the left and a rear biased on the right.

Last edited by Keshav; July 6th, 2018 at 01:26 AM.
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July 6th, 2018, 04:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
The SNS were made off of data given to them by Burgess and had the stiff side construction that Rossi preferred . The tires Elias used to beat Rossi were given to him because Pedrosa couldnít use them that weekend. It was a one time occurrence and like magic, Elias won the only GP race of his career. There were 4-5 teams that got the SNS but make no mistake, every crew chief didnít get to order what his rider preferred. Even though they didnít get to special order, the SNS were far superior to the shit that came out of the back of the truck. Those tires according to some riders could be months old leftovers from previous rounds. It was a huge advantage.
That advantage was the same for, say, Gibernau, Pedrosa (then Hayden) and Rossi. The data for the SNS were given, as a policy, by the lead riders of Honda and Yamaha and Michelin had to keep everybody happy. At Estoril 2006, Elias won not simply because he had SNS, but because Rossi's tires didn't make the race. Rossi had a comfortable margin until his tires gave in, while Elias' tires lasted to the last lap. Had Rossi's tires lasted as well, there was no story. Of course that was a case in which maybe Rossi didn't manage his tires perfectly; but SNS were not enough of a factor to fill the gap between an Elias and a Rossi, -- if that's what you are trying to say.
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July 6th, 2018, 04:50 AM   #75
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I have always agreed with you that other than in 2002 the "advantages" Rossi had early career were what had previously accrued to the rider who had earned the status of top rider, and were similar to what Doohan had; I don't think it behoved Rossi fans to then bitterly complain about Stoner having a bike or tire advantage in 2007 however as many did.

The argument that he has only encountered MM in his bike racing dotage is reasonable, but then again the sensational early career statistics posted earlier in this thread were against main rivals in Max Biaggi and Sete Gibernau who were 8 and 7 years older than him and not very arguably not of the quality of say Jorge Lorenzo or Stoner, with Gibernau mostly not even on a factory bike; Mick Doohan managed to beat a younger Max for a title when he was 33 btw.

Imo the early poster who suggested 2009 was the best indicator of his stature has it right, ie he was better than a top 10 all time rider and winner of 5 titles himself in Jorge Lorenzo at a time both were close to their primes, but not totally dominant over him/dominant to the extent he was over the likes of Gibernau and Biaggi.
Ok, but as much as I always disliked him, Biaggi in his prime was a world-class rider. One of the very best. Ask Kanemoto about him... There is a reason why Lorenzo considered him as his model. And Pedrosa also has consistently been one of the best riders out there, for so many years. Mighty Honda designed an entire new formula around him "to beat Valentino Rossi", and failed. Hayden himself was hailed as the next rider from America who could terminate Rossi's domination. And they all rode a factory Honda, not a quirky Ducati or a Suzuki.

Dismissing great riders and bikes to implicitly dismiss Rossi, is a lame and partisan proposition. And anyway, can't blame a rider for not beating someone who wasn't there. Then, Rossi did beat Stoner and Lorenzo in 2008 and 2009, didn't he.
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July 6th, 2018, 04:54 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
To say nothing of the selection factor. Stoner documented this in his bio, saying how Rossi and the bigger names, at a minimum, got the tires they requested, whereas less favoured riders got whatever mismatched crap Michelin threw at them. If Rossi demanded a specific tire, he got it. Other riders, could end up with a front that was biased on the left and a rear biased on the right.
That was Honda's own blindness in 2006: they should have given the SNS to Stoner, rather than Elias. Then we would have seen something really interesting.
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July 6th, 2018, 04:56 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
To say nothing of the selection factor. Stoner documented this in his bio, saying how Rossi and the bigger names, at a minimum, got the tires they requested, whereas less favoured riders got whatever mismatched crap Michelin threw at them. If Rossi demanded a specific tire, he got it. Other riders, could end up with a front that was biased on the left and a rear biased on the right.
A Michelin Monkey Fuck?
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July 6th, 2018, 05:02 AM   #78
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That advantage was the same for, say, Gibernau, Pedrosa (then Hayden) and Rossi. The data for the SNS were given, as a policy, by the lead riders of Honda and Yamaha and Michelin had to keep everybody happy. At Estoril 2006, Elias won not simply because he had SNS, but because Rossi's tires didn't make the race. Rossi had a comfortable margin until his tires gave in, while Elias' tires lasted to the last lap. Had Rossi's tires lasted as well, there was no story. Of course that was a case in which maybe Rossi didn't manage his tires perfectly; but SNS were not enough of a factor to fill the gap between an Elias and a Rossi, -- if that's what you are trying to say.
I can remember talk at the end of the SNS era of Rossi being of the belief that Michelin were favouring the HRC riders over him, although perhaps not at that race since Elias got the SNS tires because they didn’t suit Pedrosa, and Colin Edwards’ own testimony was that in general the SNS tires suited Rossi, certainly rather than him anyway.

I don’t have as much problem with the SNS tires and Rossi as some, Michelin basically just continued their long term policy of playing favourites/running a tiered system of tire supply going back to at least Wayne Rainey’s time, but as I have said did have a problem with bitter complaints about the Bridgestone tires advantaging Stoner in 2007, that advantage if there was one being fairly won as a result of years of co-development with Ducati starting from the position of the Michelins definitely being the tire to have. The talk, admittedly never substantiated, that Rossi made threats to get on the Bridgestones himself the next season, and that 1 year of the Bridgestones perhaps being better after years of Michelin dominance seemed to prompt Dorna to bring in a control tire, didn’t impress me either.
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Last edited by michaelm; July 6th, 2018 at 07:14 AM.
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July 6th, 2018, 05:29 AM   #79
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Ok, but as much as I always disliked him, Biaggi in his prime was a world-class rider. One of the very best. Ask Kanemoto about him... There is a reason why Lorenzo considered him as his model. And Pedrosa also has consistently been one of the best riders out there, for so many years. Mighty Honda designed an entire new formula around him "to beat Valentino Rossi", and failed. Hayden himself was hailed as the next rider from America who could terminate Rossi's domination. And they all rode a factory Honda, not a quirky Ducati or a Suzuki.

Dismissing great riders and bikes to implicitly dismiss Rossi, is a lame and partisan proposition. And anyway, can't blame a rider for not beating someone who wasn't there. Then, Rossi did beat Stoner and Lorenzo in 2008 and 2009, didn't he.
Sure, there is no doubt about Rossi’s greatness as a rider, and there is also no such thing as a GOAT rider imo, comparisons across different generations being invidious, and all riders can do no more than beat the riders who turn up to race them as you say. MM has certainly already put himself right up there in the gp bike racing pantheon though, and already is ahead of Rossi’s remarkable early career in terms of titles won at his current age. I don’t think there is any way his riding style will carry through to contending for titles at age 39, which is where Rossi may be truly singular in maintaining the motivation, fitness etc to still be so fast at that age, but I don’t think there is any requirement for riders to continue that long either.
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July 6th, 2018, 05:49 AM   #80
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I can remember talk at the end of the SNS era of Rossi being of the belief that Michelin were favouring the HRC riders over him, although perhaps not at that race since Elias got the SNS tires because they didnít suit Pedrosa, and Colin Edwardsí own testimony was that in general the SNS tires suited Rossi, certainly rather than him anyway.

I donít have as much problem with the SNS tires and Rossi as some, Michelin basically just continued their long term policy of playing favourites/running a tiered system of tire supply going back to at least Wayne Raineyís time, but as I have said did have a problem with bitter complaints about the Bridgestone tires advantaging Stoner in 2007, that advantage if there was one being fairly won as a result of years of co-development with Ducati starting from the position of the Michelins definitely being the tire to have. The talk, admittedly never substantiated, that Rossi made threats to get on the Bridgestone himself the next season, and that 1 year of the Bridgestones perhaps being better after years of Michelin dominance seemed to prompt Dorna to bring in a control tire, didnít impress me either.
Never substantiated? Rossi made threats to go to F1 if he couldnít get on the Bridgestones which prompted Carmelo to approach Bridgestone on his behalf. Carmelo was told by Bridgestone they did not want supply Rossi and Carmelo responded to that by telling Bridgestone that he would go to a spec tire and Michelin would most likely win that bid. Bridgestone agreed , 08 turned into a nightmare with the riders screaming about Rossi getting Bridgestones. Pedrosa was allowed to switch midway thru the season after the championship was out of reach and after it became obvious the other riders would switch for 09, they went ahead and announced the switch to spec Bridgestones. Ducati and Stoner pleaded to switch to Michelin because the construction on the Bridgestone had gone away from what made the Duc work and of course they were denied.
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