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July 5th, 2018, 04:53 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
This is the 10th year n Rossi’career where riders have been on equal rubber and Rossi’s numbers n that timeframe are pretty unextraordinary and 6 of his titles came with a tire advantage. Actually all 7 did because 09 he had a huge data advantage on the Bridgestones. Once that last advantage dried up he has 12 wins and 0 titles in 9 1/2 seasons which actually puts him in comparison to Dovi, not Marc.
You're right that MM has outperformed him, but he started as a 20 year old against a 34 year old Rossi.

Flip the script (a 20 year old Rossi against a 34 year old MM), and we'd have very different numbers.

He's outperformed Dani and been neck to neck with Lorenzo in the post-SNS era (again, being many years older than both of them).

Marc is an extraordinary talent, but it's too early to make the case for GOAT. He may very well achieve this.
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July 5th, 2018, 05:06 PM   #62
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You're right that MM has outperformed him, but he started as a 20 year old against a 34 year old Rossi.

Flip the script (a 20 year old Rossi against a 34 year old MM), and we'd have very different numbers.

He's outperformed Dani and been neck to neck with Lorenzo in the post-SNS era (again, being many years older than both of them).

Marc is an extraordinary talent, but it's too early to make the case for GOAT. He may very well achieve this.
I love Marquez, he's perhaps the most exciting rider to watch since Kevin Schwantz, only unlike Schwantz, he is racking up titles like no one's business.

That being said I can't say he is a GOAT at this point because it's still too early to do so based on numbers. Based on what he has achieved to date, I consider him to be a more successful rider than Casey Stoner. Personally I think he is more talented than Stoner was. There's too much he has done on the track that not even Stoner could duplicate from saves to having to compete against a much closer field --due to the technical changes that have been made in the sport-- than Stoner ever had to in his day.

I think we all know his goal is ten titles, the question is will he get there. Who knows. I do think he probably will tie Rossi at a minimum. But till he gets up there with his numbers, talent alone doesn't make a GOAT.
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July 5th, 2018, 05:27 PM   #63
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There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard.
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July 5th, 2018, 05:27 PM   #64
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As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
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July 5th, 2018, 06:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard.
The SNS were made off of data given to them by Burgess and had the stiff side construction that Rossi preferred . The tires Elias used to beat Rossi were given to him because Pedrosa couldnít use them that weekend. It was a one time occurrence and like magic, Elias won the only GP race of his career. There were 4-5 teams that got the SNS but make no mistake, every crew chief didnít get to order what his rider preferred. Even though they didnít get to special order, the SNS were far superior to the shit that came out of the back of the truck. Those tires according to some riders could be months old leftovers from previous rounds. It was a huge advantage.
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July 5th, 2018, 06:19 PM   #66
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As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
The Willairot incident is a permanent black mark against him, although he was 18 at the time and should never have been sent out by his supposedly adult crew.

Him being dangerous as a motogp rider is mostly Rossi propaganda imo, he hasn't injured anyone or even caused a dangerous accident in a race, and Rossi has in fact crashed him out twice (once as a result of deliberate malfeasance), as against him crashing Rossi out once from what was hardly a high speed torpedo, and in fact by Rossi's own recent argument post the Assen race Rossi shouldn't have contested that corner at Argentina against a much faster rider.

He lost any chance of the 2015 title by intemperate riding, but when he had a dominant bike in 2014 won as dominantly as any of the greats in their best seasons. Otherwise the way he has ridden may have been what was required for him to win in the current era with the current rules on the bike available to him, and his practice crashes which are mostly low sides at not very high speed may be the result of a deliberate tactic to explore the limits of the bike. In any case he has 4 titles from his first 5 years in the class, and is looking good for 5 out of 6, the same as Rossi but 1 year younger than Rossi was at that stage of his career.

Last edited by michaelm; July 6th, 2018 at 04:27 AM.
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July 5th, 2018, 06:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard.
I have always agreed with you that other than in 2002 the "advantages" Rossi had early career were what had previously accrued to the rider who had earned the status of top rider, and were similar to what Doohan had; I don't think it behoved Rossi fans to then bitterly complain about Stoner having a bike or tire advantage in 2007 however as many did.

The argument that he has only encountered MM in his bike racing dotage is reasonable, but then again the sensational early career statistics posted earlier in this thread were against main rivals in Max Biaggi and Sete Gibernau who were 8 and 7 years older than him and not very arguably not of the quality of say Jorge Lorenzo or Stoner, with Gibernau mostly not even on a factory bike; Mick Doohan managed to beat a younger Max for a title when he was 33 btw.

Imo the early poster who suggested 2009 was the best indicator of his stature has it right, ie he was better than a top 10 all time rider and winner of 5 titles himself in Jorge Lorenzo at a time both were close to their primes, but not totally dominant over him/dominant to the extent he was over the likes of Gibernau and Biaggi.
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Last edited by michaelm; July 5th, 2018 at 11:18 PM.
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July 5th, 2018, 06:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
I love Marquez, he's perhaps the most exciting rider to watch since Kevin Schwantz, only unlike Schwantz, he is racking up titles like no one's business.

That being said I can't say he is a GOAT at this point because it's still too early to do so based on numbers. Based on what he has achieved to date, I consider him to be a more successful rider than Casey Stoner. Personally I think he is more talented than Stoner was. There's too much he has done on the track that not even Stoner could duplicate from saves to having to compete against a much closer field --due to the technical changes that have been made in the sport-- than Stoner ever had to in his day.

I think we all know his goal is ten titles, the question is will he get there. Who knows. I do think he probably will tie Rossi at a minimum. But till he gets up there with his numbers, talent alone doesn't make a GOAT.
I too think he is better than Stoner, or at least better over his entire period in MotoGP, it being hard to be better than Stoner was in 2007 and 2011, particularly the former season. I don't agree with the closer field/more even equipment argument though, which is true for 2011 and 2012 but not imo for the other 5 years of Stoner's premier class career given Stoner in those years was either riding a Ducati or for the lowliest and newest satellite team on the grid on remaindered Michelins.

Last edited by michaelm; July 5th, 2018 at 10:42 PM.
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July 5th, 2018, 09:50 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard.
Spot on.
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July 5th, 2018, 11:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Bern1 View Post
As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
On the contrary, Bern. I think Marc's willingness to push a bike to the edge and beyond in the pursuit of wins gives him a greater claim to GOATery and enhances his GOATitude.
If he were just a crasher with the odd win then I would be on board with you, but I am afraid that that's just not the case mate.
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Last edited by McZee; July 6th, 2018 at 01:22 AM.
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