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July 4th, 2018, 10:26 AM   #41
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If poised to win means nothing, please stop talking about Stacey Moaner.
Two championships in a decade plus career means fuckall in the grand scheme of things.
What does count for Casey though is his pure unmatched speed on a bike. I feel Vale had better race craft, but he could never be as stone cold fast as Casey. This is just my opinion of course.
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July 4th, 2018, 11:05 AM   #42
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What does count for Casey though is his pure unmatched speed on a bike. I feel Vale had better race craft, but he could never be as stone cold fast as Casey. This is just my opinion of course.
I donít disagree.
But speed alone does not make an all time great. Mental fortitude is a big part and Stoner didnít have it. Rossi does, Marquez does (Maybe to a greater extent).
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July 4th, 2018, 11:15 AM   #43
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I donít disagree.
But speed alone does not make an all time great. Mental fortitude is a big part and Stoner didnít have it. Rossi does, Marquez does (Maybe to a greater extent).
Yeah. I think this is evident with Marc when he has a massive moment and just keeps it pinned (like in jrez this year when he slid over the gravel from Thom Luthi's crash) or when he crashes in practice, jumps straight on to his number 2 bike and goes even quicker first time out.
I don't think you can do what Vale is doing right now (2nd in the championship at 39) without incredible mental strength.
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July 4th, 2018, 05:06 PM   #44
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If burgess deserves some credit for Rossiís immediate success on the Yamaha, he deserves some of the blame on the lack of it on the Ducati. It cuts both ways.

The problem with ďBut whatís about DucatiĒ is that thatís not how you measure someoneís GOATdom. You look at the career as a whole. Marquez right now is in the stage of his career when Rossi was in 2004-2006. It is simply too early to say how he is an altime greatat the peak. For all we know, he could very well become a Pedrosa in a couple more years. Or leave and drive F1 cars.

So once again, he hasnít crossed the peak of his career yet, havenít gone to a second tier bike and showed what he can do or is fighting for championships or P2/P3 a decade and more into his career. Letís revisit this discussion in a few years time.

But as of now, in this given day, he is the best rider on track by a considerable margin.
Nonsense. 6 titles makes him an all time great by any measure if he stopped tomorrow, if not necessarily Rossiís superior overall.

If he does win another 3 titles, I am not sure that Rossiís last 10 seasons help his case against MM unless he does win the 8th/10th at pushing 40, testimony to his endurance and continuing motivation, and quality at his peak given he is still competitive, though those years have been.
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July 4th, 2018, 05:20 PM   #45
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I don’t disagree.
But speed alone does not make an all time great. Mental fortitude is a big part and Stoner didn’t have it. Rossi does, Marquez does (Maybe to a greater extent).
No-one talks about Stoner as GOAT except Barry and he is taking the urine/being wry. Posters did at one time make the case for him being the FOAT/fastest of all time but that mantle probably belongs to MM now.

The mental toughness thing is a different issue, and facile particularly coming from an armchair observer who often calls others out for being armchair critics. He won a title and 23 races on an 800 Ducati, including 3 races on that horrible pig GP10, and had another dominant title win for a different marque which you have advanced as a criterion for greatness on this very thread.He is tough beyond any imagining of yours but, sure, did not have the absolute continuing drive/will to win that the likes of Rossi and MM have; he often seemed to be racing more against the track and the limits of his bike rather than the other riders.

Last edited by michaelm; July 4th, 2018 at 05:35 PM.
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July 4th, 2018, 06:34 PM   #46
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No Im serious when I say Stoner is the goat. I know several riders have also said it. I just assume those that ride think that.
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July 5th, 2018, 07:25 AM   #47
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Marquez is a great rider. Thereís no arguing that.
However, he jumped on a championship winning bike, won more championships and stayed on that bike.

When Rossi mounted the M1 at Welkom in 2004, no one expected him to win the race, let alone the championship. Let me know when Marquez does that. Then letís talk GOATdom.
Marc won the title his rookie year on an inferior bike to the Yamaha that had won the title in 2012. Rossi was given the best bike on the grid his rookie year and failed to win the title. Marc has won titles in 13- 16 where he clearly had the inferior bike , and 17 , where for over half the season he had the inferior bike. 14 he was on the best bike and he will win it this year on a bike that is equal to the Ducati.
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July 5th, 2018, 08:11 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synn View Post
If burgess deserves some credit for Rossiís immediate success on the Yamaha, he deserves some of the blame on the lack of it on the Ducati. It cuts both ways.

The problem with ďBut whatís about DucatiĒ is that thatís not how you measure someoneís GOATdom. You look at the career as a whole. Marquez right now is in the stage of his career when Rossi was in 2004-2006. It is simply too early to say how he is an altime greatat the peak. For all we know, he could very well become a Pedrosa in a couple more years. Or leave and drive F1 cars.

So once again, he hasnít crossed the peak of his career yet, havenít gone to a second tier bike and showed what he can do or is fighting for championships or P2/P3 a decade and more into his career. Letís revisit this discussion in a few years time.

But as of now, in this given day, he is the best rider on track by a considerable margin.
Great post.
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July 5th, 2018, 08:24 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
Marc won the title his rookie year on an inferior bike to the Yamaha that had won the title in 2012. Rossi was given the best bike on the grid his rookie year and failed to win the title. Marc has won titles in 13- 16 where he clearly had the inferior bike , and 17 , where for over half the season he had the inferior bike. 14 he was on the best bike and he will win it this year on a bike that is equal to the Ducati.
The 2012 and 2013 RCV was a fantastic bike. Dani was really strong on it. Even Bautista was very strong on it in 2013 (on a satellite bike).
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July 5th, 2018, 08:34 AM   #50
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MM has 96 GP starts.

Some comparisons to other legends after 96 starts:

Marquez = 38 wins (40.6% starts)

Rossi = 61 wins (63.5% starts)

Lorenzo = 30 wins (31.3% starts)

Stoner = 24 (25% starts)

Last edited by RCV600RR; July 5th, 2018 at 10:13 AM.
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