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July 4th, 2018, 04:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdubSTYLIE View Post
I agree that Rossi at Welkom was a defining moment in his career. But I don't agree that because Marc has been on honda, a good bike every year, that he should be discredited. Bottom line is Marc does things on a regular base that no other rider can pull off on their luckiest day. Not even Stoner. Marc isn't just the GOAT he is the new and improved GMO GOAT.
Itís not a discredit to MM.
Rossiís jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.
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July 4th, 2018, 05:03 AM   #22
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Itís not a discredit to MM.
Rossiís jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.
Rossi wasn't as dominant as Doohan nor did he win as many races in a single season as Marquez without even getting into control tyres.
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July 4th, 2018, 05:20 AM   #23
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Marquez is the best at the moment. You may like his personality or not, but that doesn't change it. Comparisons with past riders are pointless, including Stoner who retired just in time to make any direct confrontation impossible. I'm not saying that Stoner intentionally avoided having to race Marc: actually a little later he wanted to ride a wild card at Austin itself, Marquez' own garden, but was denied the opportunity by Honda. Marquez insisted he didn't even know about it and didn't have a say in the decision.

Saying that a rider who has retired would beat the whole field nowadays, is also pointless. Had Rossi retired in 2010, many would argue he would have beaten all those who came afterwards, but we know better because he was enough of a sport to continue racing, going to Ducati, etc. etc. Like him or not, he's still there honorably racing the fastest kids in the world at 40. One can blame Rossi for many things, but not for that.
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July 4th, 2018, 06:15 AM   #24
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Marquez is a great rider. Thereís no arguing that.
However, he jumped on a championship winning bike, won more championships and stayed on that bike.

When Rossi mounted the M1 at Welkom in 2004, no one expected him to win the race, let alone the championship. Let me know when Marquez does that. Then letís talk GOATdom.

Please tell us about the rossi Ducati era. And while you are at it. Please explain why no other Honda rider, has won the championship since Marc?
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July 4th, 2018, 06:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MdubSTYLIE View Post
I agree that Rossi at Welkom was a defining moment in his career. But I don't agree that because Marc has been on honda, a good bike every year, that he should be discredited. Bottom line is Marc does things on a regular base that no other rider can pull off on their luckiest day. Not even Stoner. Marc isn't just the GOAT he is the new and improved GMO GOAT.

Well said and even when the 10th is achieved. There will still be the yellow fan club in denial.
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July 4th, 2018, 06:23 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synn View Post
Itís not a discredit to MM.
Rossiís jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.

He took his whole crew & the SNS tires with him to yamaha. It was rather clear what was going to happened.
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July 4th, 2018, 06:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
Marquez is the best at the moment. You may like his personality or not, but that doesn't change it. Comparisons with past riders are pointless, including Stoner who retired just in time to make any direct confrontation impossible. I'm not saying that Stoner intentionally avoided having to race Marc: actually a little later he wanted to ride a wild card at Austin itself, Marquez' own garden, but was denied the opportunity by Honda. Marquez insisted he didn't even know about it and didn't have a say in the decision.

Saying that a rider who has retired would beat the whole field nowadays, is also pointless. Had Rossi retired in 2010, many would argue he would have beaten all those who came afterwards, but we know better because he was enough of a sport to continue racing, going to Ducati, etc. etc. Like him or not, he's still there honorably racing the fastest kids in the world at 40. One can blame Rossi for many things, but not for that.
Cant find any fault with your comment. However, he could fix the 2015 Philip Island bullshit he started, but he choose not to. This is where most of us have a problem with him.
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July 4th, 2018, 06:28 AM   #28
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I really do think that Casey is probably the fastest person to ever throw a leg over a motorcycle.
But if you put him, Marc and Vale on identical bikes in a race then I think Marc would rough him up.
Having said that, if you gave them an open track then Casey would set the fastest time.

Vale's longevity is incredible though and, given his wealth, it shows his love of motorcycle racing as a motivation.

But I really cannot see past Marc's mixture of out and out speed, racing ability and just the things he can do on a motorcycle. Having said all that, both Vale and Casey have titles on multiple manufacturers.
I know that you can argue the importance of this, but it shows adaptability and gives credence to the old saying, "If you're fast, then you're fast on anything."
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July 4th, 2018, 06:35 AM   #29
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I tend to agree, but he hasn't had Rossi's longevity as yet, and i understand much of what is being said about him in this article also applied to Mike Hailwood.

I would rate him higher than Doohan personally, but the dismissal of Doohan as being on a dominant bike on which he was presented few hurdles is a little facile. Even apart from the bike being as much of a rival as the opposing riders on a 500 2 -stroke and constantly trying to kill you, and succeeding in crippling Doohan to the extent he had to have a special hand/thumb operated brake, he was dominating other greats of the sport in the year of his injury, HRC gave Criville and other riders his settings, and iirc there were 5 identical Hondas on the grid in one of his championship years. Positing a bike advantage as being due to a bike only he could ride also seems a trifle contradictory. I would also, like Birdman, put in a word for Lawson.

I don't think there is any way MM could ride one of those vicious golden era 500 2-strokes the way he rides a 4-stroke, although I have no doubt he would quickly develop an appropriate different method.
I think Marquez , Lorenzo, and Stoner would have been excellent 500 riders . Stoner and Lorenzo have some of the most precise throttle control in the history of the sport and Marquez just has the ability to ride a bike period. Of those three, Marc would be the one most at risk and would have to change his approach the most. As far as Rossiís longevity, the switch to the 4 stroke no doubt has played a huge factor and his competitiveness has been virtually guaranteed while sitting on one of the 4 bikes capable of winning the vast majority of his career. Had Rossi competed under this rules package and rider talent his entire career, we may be talking about him in the same terms as we talk about Pedrosa. Hereís a what if, what if Marquez wins this year and the next three years , ď not a long shotĒ and walks away with 8 championships in 9 years, would Rossiís longevity still hold any water in this debate.
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July 4th, 2018, 06:44 AM   #30
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I think Marquez , Lorenzo, and Stoner would have been excellent 500 riders . Stoner and Lorenzo have some of the most precise throttle control in the history of the sport and Marquez just has the ability to ride a bike period. Of those three, Marc would be the one most at risk and would have to change his approach the most. As far as Rossiís longevity, the switch to the 4 stroke no doubt has played a huge factor and his competitiveness has been virtually guaranteed while sitting on one of the 4 bikes capable of winning the vast majority of his career. Had Rossi competed under this rules package and rider talent his entire career, we may be talking about him in the same terms as we talk about Pedrosa. Hereís a what if, what if Marquez wins this year and the next three years , ď not a long shotĒ and walks away with 8 championships in 9 years, would Rossiís longevity still hold any water in this debate.
He has more titles at 25 than Rossi had, so another 3 years could well be sufficient longevity to surpass Rossi as you say, and the longevity thing would then become rather moot and down to whatever MM feels like doing. He hasnít done it till he has done it though obviously.
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