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May 31st, 2018, 03:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
Michelin consistency needs to improve, sure. The Bridgestones were better.

My point was confined to considering why, relatively, there were more crashes here than at other rounds.
I get it bud, and my point is the resurfacing of the tarmac did not negate Michelin's peculiar and distinctive performance characteristics. Let me put it another way perhaps we can find a common ground. The resurfacing highlighted michelins peculiar performance characteristics in a negative way.


I can't find you the quote but it's buried somewhere. Rossi talked about the peculiar Michelin DNA being as follows, the rear tire offered more grip, the front tire less with a narrow sweet spot. Getting it wrong means you'd be in the gravel. What Rossi said makes sense in what plays out in general at 'all' tracks since the reintroduction of the Michelin control tire, given that more grip in the rear pushes the front and as a result making it more unstable, increasing the riders susceptibility to crashing. Throw in Michelin manufacturing approach of hand making MotoGP tires as an art as opposed to Bridgestone's approach of precision and greater operating range, makes the French tire one that will cause more 'crashes' while breaking lab records. It's asinine logic, again knowing this was not your point, to cite lap records as a corollary to controvert crashing because as Rossi suggests, when you tap the sweat spot you go fast, diverge in the slightest and you're on your ass, ie 'crash'.



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May 31st, 2018, 03:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
I get it bud, and my point is the resurfacing of the tarmac did not negate Michelin's peculiar and distinctive performance characteristics. Let me put it another way perhaps we can find a common ground. The resurfacing highlighted michelins peculiar performance characteristics in a negative way.


I can't find you the quote but it's buried somewhere. Rossi talked about the peculiar Michelin DNA being as follows, the rear tire offered more grip, the front tire less with a narrow sweet spot. Getting it wrong means you'd be in the gravel. What Rossi said makes sense in what plays out in general at 'all' tracks since the reintroduction of the Michelin control tire, given that more grip in the rear pushes the front and as a result making it more unstable, increasing the riders susceptibility to crashing. Throw in Michelin manufacturing approach of hand making MotoGP tires as an art as opposed to Bridgestone's approach of precision and greater operating range, makes the French tire one that will cause more 'crashes' while breaking lab records. It's asinine logic, again knowing this was not your point, to cite lap records as a corollary to controvert crashing because as Rossi suggests, when you tap the sweat spot you go fast, diverge in the slightest and you're on your ass, ie 'crash'.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
I ride what would be considered pretty aggressive and I can tell you for a fact that even Bridgestone street/ race tires like the RS10ís give much better warning than the Michelinís before letting the front go. After running Michelinís for decades, I tried the Bridgestones and never looked back. I have not bought Michelinís in close to 8-9 years.
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May 31st, 2018, 04:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
I ride what would be considered pretty aggressive and I can tell you for a fact that even Bridgestone street/ race tires like the RS10ís give much better warning than the Michelinís before letting the front go. After running Michelinís for decades, I tried the Bridgestones and never looked back. I have not bought Michelinís in close to 8-9 years.
I ye olden days I swore by Michelins. Love the Bridgestones.
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May 31st, 2018, 04:37 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
I ride what would be considered pretty aggressive and I can tell you for a fact that even Bridgestone street/ race tires like the RS10ís give much better warning than the Michelinís before letting the front go. After running Michelinís for decades, I tried the Bridgestones and never looked back. I have not bought Michelinís in close to 8-9 years.
Before anybody says to me that a weekend warrior track day local racing enthusiasts like myself has no bearing on Moto GP technology, I accept; however I have had a very similar experience with Michelin vs. Bridgestone. If I could describe in short, B-stones are more forgiving to me. Another tire we run here as a rule are British-made Dunlop's. The American-made Dunlop's don't stand up to Southern California tarmac. I don't know why and I couldn't give you a real good technical answer but I think it has to do with the peculiar aggregates in the asphalt, weathering characteristics, and abrasion that we get here.

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Last edited by Jumkie; May 31st, 2018 at 05:15 PM.
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May 31st, 2018, 05:27 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
I get it bud, and my point is the resurfacing of the tarmac did not negate Michelin's peculiar and distinctive performance characteristics. Let me put it another way perhaps we can find a common ground. The resurfacing highlighted michelins peculiar performance characteristics in a negative way.


I can't find you the quote but it's buried somewhere. Rossi talked about the peculiar Michelin DNA being as follows, the rear tire offered more grip, the front tire less with a narrow sweet spot. Getting it wrong means you'd be in the gravel. What Rossi said makes sense in what plays out in general at 'all' tracks since the reintroduction of the Michelin control tire, given that more grip in the rear pushes the front and as a result making it more unstable, increasing the riders susceptibility to crashing. Throw in Michelin manufacturing approach of hand making MotoGP tires as an art as opposed to Bridgestone's approach of precision and greater operating range, makes the French tire one that will cause more 'crashes' while breaking lab records. It's asinine logic, again knowing this was not your point, to cite lap records as a corollary to controvert crashing because as Rossi suggests, when you tap the sweat spot you go fast, diverge in the slightest and you're on your ass, ie 'crash'.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
I see your point. The Michelins appear not to be as forgiving as the Bridgestones, in general.
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May 31st, 2018, 06:22 PM   #36
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Not to pick a fight, but I don't think it's a matter of 'yes, they are different..'.

They are bad tires.

Not up to the task and poorly made.

They've ruined many races they are so bad.
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May 31st, 2018, 06:23 PM   #37
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As in, if I was as bad at my job as Michelins are at their job I would be fired.
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May 31st, 2018, 07:04 PM   #38
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Not to pick a fight, but I don't think it's a matter of 'yes, they are different..'.

They are bad tires.

Not up to the task and poorly made.

They've ruined many races they are so bad.
I may not have been paying enough attention, but I wouldn't go that far. They break lap records consistently. I think they have some QC problems, and the front isn't as good as the Bridgestone front, but the rear is universally praised as better than the Bridgestone rear.
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May 31st, 2018, 08:00 PM   #39
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As a few articles pointed out, Bridgestone made their tyres in Japan and shipped out for the races, so for logistical reasons they couldn’t do so many variants based on each individual track. They therefore had a wider window of performance.

The Michelins are of course made in France, which means that they can be transported by road to most tracks with a short turnaround time. That means a higher degree of fine tuning, narrower window of performance. When it works, it works great, but when the conditions are a bit weird (Like in Le Mans, where it was sunny, yet cold), it can backfire.

Don’t forget, there were plenty of crashes on Dunlops in Le Mans too. So it wasn’t just a Michelin thing.

As for street use, I currently have Michelins. But next season, I am switching to Pirellis.
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May 31st, 2018, 08:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
I may not have been paying enough attention, but I wouldn't go that far. They break lap records consistently. I think they have some QC problems, and the front isn't as good as the Bridgestone front, but the rear is universally praised as better than the Bridgestone rear.
RC, how much of these lap records might we contribute to the progression of the GP bike? ( improved power delivery, Aero package, chassis and swingarm development, etc.)

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