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May 14th, 2018, 07:08 AM   #61
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So now its changed, Yamaha didn't wipe the floor with Honda, in fact Honda with a crap bike wiped the floor with Yamaha, which now begs the question, why are Yamaha so useless this year, with similar problems?
Yamaha don't have a Marquez, they don't even have a Lorenzo anymore. They have Rossi who's 39 years old, whom you could argue has never been Stoner, Marquez or Lorenzos equal and Vinales who can't seem to be fast enough when things aren't perfect for him.
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May 14th, 2018, 07:18 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Yamaha don't have a Marquez, they don't even have a Lorenzo anymore. They have Rossi who's 39 years old, whom you could argue has never been Stoner, Marquez or Lorenzos equal and Vinales who can't seem to be fast enough when things aren't perfect for him.
I'm sorry, but the original post troubled me as it contained the words Yamaha, Honda and wiped in the wrong way, which now suggests to me that MM doesn't really care if he falls off as he now knows how to do it without injury, so maybe someone like Maverick, needs to do similar, after all when he was on the Suzuki he rode like a demon, yet now he's the mouse to Rossi's lying in wait cat. Because most certainly if you push the envelope, it gives a lot of feedback, which would IMO help Maverick and Yamaha.
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May 14th, 2018, 07:52 AM   #63
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So if Yamaha were wiping the floor with Honda, how come MM won the title and Honda the constructors?
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Yamaha were fine with the spec ECU in 2016 when they were wiping the floor with Honda on acceleration, they got complacent which is why they are where they are now.
As per my post you quoted, I was simply speaking about acceleration. Nothing else. Case in point is Mugello 2016

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Originally Posted by Theo View Post
So now its changed, Yamaha didn't wipe the floor with Honda, in fact Honda with a crap bike wiped the floor with Yamaha, which now begs the question, why are Yamaha so useless this year, with similar problems?
They are lost, and they don't have a rider like Marquez.
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May 15th, 2018, 03:04 AM   #64
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I just had a brilliant idea!

Why dont the Yamaha factory riders swap bikes with Zarco ....... its clearly a better bike.

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May 15th, 2018, 03:11 AM   #65
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I just had a brilliant idea!

Why dont the Yamaha factory riders swap bikes with Zarco ....... its clearly a better bike.

But of course! After all as common wisdom tells us, the bike rides itself.
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May 15th, 2018, 03:16 AM   #66
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I just had a brilliant idea!

Why dont the Yamaha factory riders swap bikes with Zarco ....... its clearly a better bike.

I can answer this - It's a Japanese culture thing, taking a step back like that is seen as being extremely shameful - This seems bonkers to the rest of the world but it genuinely means something to them.

They only very reluctantly allowed the factory boys to start messing around with the 2015/16 based frame again (the 2016 frame was never raced, so what they used in 2016 was the 2015 frame).

Apparently, it's also a similar reason as to why they didn't hire in any MM software engineers (when Ducati and Honda did so) - They believed that they had the in-house resource and they have stuck to this line until very recently if the reports can be believed (they are looking to hire some MM software engineers now, most likely prompted by VR's very public harsh words after the last race).

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May 15th, 2018, 03:46 AM   #67
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I can answer this - It's a Japanese culture thing, taking a step back like that is seen as being extremely shameful - This seems bonkers to the rest of the world but it genuinely means something to them.

They only very reluctantly allowed the factory boys to start messing around with the 2015/16 based frame again (the 2016 frame was never raced, so what they used in 2016 was the 2015 frame).

Apparently, it's also a similar reason as to why they didn't hire in any MM software engineers (when Ducati and Honda did so) - They believed that they had the in-house resource and they have stuck to this line until very recently if the reports can be believed (they are looking to hire some MM software engineers now, most likely prompted by VR's very public harsh words after the last race).

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That's a very relevant point and good insight, Macca. The influence of culture on one's mindset is extremely strong.
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May 15th, 2018, 03:52 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca View Post
I can answer this - It's a Japanese culture thing, taking a step back like that is seen as being extremely shameful - This seems bonkers to the rest of the world but it genuinely means something to them.

They only very reluctantly allowed the factory boys to start messing around with the 2015/16 based frame again (the 2016 frame was never raced, so what they used in 2016 was the 2015 frame).

Apparently, it's also a similar reason as to why they didn't hire in any MM software engineers (when Ducati and Honda did so) - They believed that they had the in-house resource and they have stuck to this line until very recently if the reports can be believed (they are looking to hire some MM software engineers now, most likely prompted by VR's very public harsh words after the last race).

Macca
Yamaha may as well write the season off as it's going to take some time to get MM software engineers, and then to get things up to speed. Other thing to consider is that Ducati and HRC may have poached the best engineers leaving Yamaha to try and clean up with sloppy thirds in this case.

Rossi can level all the charges he wants about electronics, but it still does little to explain why Zarco can perform on the Tech 3 M1 and the Yamaha factory riders find themselves in a no-man's land of performance. I will grant some may be down to electronics, but I don't think all of it is. I haven't been impressed with their chassis at all. Neither rider is generating the corner speeds Lorenzo used to do to devastating effect. It's a corner speed bike and neither rider is doing it, or capable of it for that matter. As impressive as it is that Rossi is competing out there at 39 years old, he's still 39 years old, and that cannot be overlooked. He isn't going to magically outrun time.
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May 15th, 2018, 04:14 AM   #69
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Yamaha may as well write the season off as it's going to take some time to get MM software engineers, and then to get things up to speed. Other thing to consider is that Ducati and HRC may have poached the best engineers leaving Yamaha to try and clean up with sloppy thirds in this case.

Rossi can level all the charges he wants about electronics, but it still does little to explain why Zarco can perform on the Tech 3 M1 and the Yamaha factory riders find themselves in a no-man's land of performance. I will grant some may be down to electronics, but I don't think all of it is. I haven't been impressed with their chassis at all. Neither rider is generating the corner speeds Lorenzo used to do to devastating effect. It's a corner speed bike and neither rider is doing it, or capable of it for that matter. As impressive as it is that Rossi is competing out there at 39 years old, he's still 39 years old, and that cannot be overlooked. He isn't going to magically outrun time.
It's puzzling for sure.

One thing that has been consistent since the first pre-season test is that VR has been saying that he's happy with the 'balance' of the bike (I'm taking this as the chassis and that the front end feels like he wants it to), but they are a ways off with the electronics.

Zarco - Is the version of the chassis he's running just generating more mechanical grip?
Is the fact that he can race on the softer rubber negating the rear traction problems the factory boys are having (who race a step or two harder tyre wise)?
Is his riding style/throttle control/ability to nurse the rubber overcoming the electronic issues?

I suspect that it's a combination of all three.

As to why the factory boys aren't simply emulating Zarco to get the best out of the package is a different interesting question.
Traditionally VR's strongest trait is his ability on the brakes and riding like Zarco would mean that his setup would have to be different and take away from his strength - Is he just cautious of doing this? Is it something else?

I'm not convinced it's all just down to throttle control - They guy spends pretty much every waking hour on a bike and has visibly changed his riding style/position on the bike over the last few seasons to get better/the most out of the bike...

It will be interesting to see where we end up in a few races time.
Just how desperate will the factory Yamaha boys be if they don't have a good showing in any of the upcoming races?
Pressure will build and we will see some pretty significant cracks I'd wager!

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May 15th, 2018, 04:26 AM   #70
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I'm interested to see how Yamaha work at this compared to how Honda did in 16&17. Honda and their riders just kept chipping away, Marquez was doing a huge amount of laps in every test and never seemed to bother about a time attack. By mid season Honda had made up a lot of ground on their rivals and during the fly aways it was easy to see how much their bike had improved over the season.

I think Yamaha can't do something similar they're going to be in a hole for a few years. It took Honda 2-3 years to really get it together once they'd made some mistakes, which I think is a result of much more limited testing and no custom tyres. Yamaha don't have a Marquez or Stoner who can ride around problems and I'm not sold on Vinales being the guy that can push through the shit parts of the season and work his ass off to make the bike better after ever test and weekend. I don't think Rossi is that guy either, forgetting his age last time he had real trouble with a bike he gave up and forced changes with little direction or results which does seem to be, from an outsiders perspective, what is happening right now.

Edit to add: the major part of the responsibility is on Yamaha not its riders, but their riders still need to take some of the responsibility for what is/has happened.
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