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April 13th, 2018, 03:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
“As a rider you can’t knock someone down just because you’re four seconds a lap faster than they are. It’s really basic. I think that it’s still something that they teach in every new rider school for racers: that it is the responsibility of the rider making the pass to insure that the pass is safe and clean.” Kevin Schwantz
As I said in a previous post, the fortuitous thing (in debate sense) about this whole incident between Marc and Rossi at Argentina is the symmetry it offers between Marc and Rossi at Sepang, we can actually point to a previous incident, one similar, with a significant distinction, deliberate vs unintentional, and use that to judge, measure, and contrast the reactions now being made. Agreed? Logical? Reasonable? Lets proceed.

First of all, let me address the knee-jerk reaction of dismissing any challenge to a MotoGP champ's commentary as me being unqualified since I’m not a MotoGP champion like Kevin Schwantz. He may be a GP legend, but he’s not god (not that I believe in god). First of all, ‘my’ opinion on the matter is not what is being scrutinized, its his comments in regard the two incidents involving the same riders both of which were crashed out by eachother, both deemed by race direction as reckless riding. Second, the fact I am not a GP champion is irrelevant, what is relevant is that Marc and Rossi are GP champions, and each have the opposite opinion on both incidents, therefore, as is logical, it is possible for Schwantz to be completely wrong (which I will argue), given that one of the two protagonist is wrong the other one right, Kevin Schwantz has in this case aligned himself with Rossi’s viewpoint that Marc is dangerous, annd goes on to demand Marc must be stopped by the officials. Agreed? Logical? Reasonable? Lets proceed.

So lets break down his comments above, and see if his reaction is consistent with his other reactions on a similar incident, look for bias, etc. I should point out, both incidents were similar but different in one important apect, minus the rider intent, which actually serves to raise the specter and severity of response, in this case, as with the trending popular opinion: “sat down” and scolded like a child, and or a race/season suspension. That is to say, if Marc deserves to be sat down and scolded like a child and banned, surely Mr. Schwantz would raise the specter of his demands for a similar incident if the intent was found ‘deliberate’ l as opposed to 'unintentional' impatience (shelving Rossi’s actions in the incident, keep in mind many blamed Marc for his own crash at Sepang, because he didn’t avoid it enough, again that marvelous symmetry, eh). Simply put, if Marc deserves to be suspended for an unintentional crash, how much more is a suspension deserved for a deliberate one?

In case there are any revisionists out there questioning the “deliberate” aspect of Rossi’s attack on Marc, see here:

Quote:
MotoGP Race Director Mike Webb also commented: “The decision is that Race Direction has imposed three penalties points on Valentino Rossi for irresponsible riding that is deliberately causing contact. Deliberately running wide in a corner in order to try and force another rider off line. The result was a crash and so it’s irresponsible riding causing a crash and for that we have imposed three penalties points on Rossi.

From an article by Ron Lieback - October 25, 2015
So you see, it was deemed “deliberate.”

Quote:
Kevin Schwantz says above:

“As a rider you can’t knock someone down just because you’re four seconds a lap faster than they are. It’s really basic. I think that it’s still something that they teach in every new rider school for racers: that it is the responsibility of the rider making the pass to insure that the pass is safe and clean.”
Nothing really to argue here, it seems, though I would take his first statement and apply it like this:

“As a rider you can’t knock someone down just because you [think he’s guilty of some crazy conspiracy you’ve accused him of doing.] It’s really basic. “

Schwantz here is employing the tactic of saying something seemingly nobody would dispute to then say something that is disputable, the illusion is all parts are undisputable. There’s another part coming, and it’s outrageous at best, to call for a rider to be suspended from the rest of the SEASON if there is contact with another rider (we'll get to this below). Rich actually, coming from Kevin Schwantz. Oh how I would have loved for an ex-racer of his time to say this bold plea about his racing. Anyway, lets move on. Btw, this isn’t the entire interview above, and there is another one I read in Spanish where his reaction was even more outlandish.


Lets revisit Kevin Schwantz’s takes on the now symmetrical complimentary incident: Sepang 2015. Including fallout before and after the infamous incident. It certainly is appropriate to measure his reactions now with what he said then, agreed? Reasonable? Lets proceed:

Regarding Rossi’s claim that Marc had conspired against him at Philip Island, to help Lorenzo by taking points away from him, and effectively impeding Valentino. It should be a no brainer, right? That’s just crazy! So Mr. Schwantz, what did you think?

Quote:
“Let’s take the Australian Grand Prix, absolutely the best racing of the year, by the way. Fantastic. For Rossi to say Marquez was playing with him to hold him up, OK, there’s always that possibility.
Wait, wait the shit you say? No, no, the next thing out of your mouth should have been, Rossi is fucking crazy!

Mr. Schwantz adds:

Quote:
Maybe Rossi detects something different in their fights compared with how Marquez fights others, I don’t know, it’s only Vale inside that helmet, and those leathers, so his perspective is unique. We can’t judge.”
That’s an actual quote! Notice the pussyfooting and restrained way he (and everybody in the world) must deal with Rossi! Even when he says and does something totally outrageous and idiotic, they have to placate to him, like he is Kim Dong Ill and they are one of his subjects. Consider that Schwantz is a MotoGP champ, he shouldn’t have to be restrained like say reporters are, who on demand must destroy information because Dorna commands it. This is the exceptional treatment that Rossi requires and gets!

Kevin Schwantz goes on to say he didn’t see “any proof” of Rossi’s claim, but nonetheless, he gives Rossi wide berth here, contrast that to what he is saying about Marc now, especially the way he is talking about Marc, boldly. There is certainly a level of condescending towards Marc, like he’s some stupid kid that doesn’t know shit, but with Rossi, well his outlandish claims ‘might have some truths, only he knows, but I’m not so sure, bla blab la.’

Kevin Schwantz isn’t exactly an impartial voice here.

Wait, but there is more. Schwantz (and others I should add) are quick to castigate Marc for all manner of ills because Rossi went down. I wonder what he thought of Marc going down at Sepang…

Quote:
“Marquez isn’t completely faultless because if you turn in on a guy twice with your brake lever exposed, that’s too risky, you’re asking to be knocked off.”
Holy shit, Schwantz is blaming Marc for crashing!

This is a great quote, and again, I marvel at the symmetry, because for every ridiculous statement being made of the two complimentary incidents, there is something we can point to and say, you’re either inconsistent at best or hypocritical at worst. Rossi has been saying lots of hypocritical statements lately, in light of his career. But here Schwantz basically blames Marc for crashing himself out. So then, can we apply the same logic to Rossi at Argentina? Can we not blame Rossi for stupidly trying to turn on wet grass, might as well be ice, when there was paved run off just a couple of meters away? Double standard?


Before I get to his recent statement below, where Schwantz calls for a season suspension if Marc makes contact again, lets take a look at what Schwantz thought about who was to blame for the Sepang debacle. Turns out, he thought BOTH riders shared blame, base on what, god knows? I suppose Rossi’s outlandish accusations influenced him to think there was truth in it, other that without substance he places partial blame on Marc.

I should note here, Schwantz isn’t the only one that frames the conflict this way, in fact it IS the official narrative by all media and most na´ve ignorant illogical spectators, that BOTH were to blame, its described as a FEUD, a mutual conflict, both equally poised and blameworthy; EXCEPT that is based on absolute bullshit! It sounds nice, seems reasonable, “takes two to tango”, is the conventional wisdom, but that would be wrong. Rossi attacked Marc, period, end of story! It should be highlighted that because this conflict has been label this way, erroneously, it is through this lens that the Argentine incident is being misrepresented. They are painting it as Marc seeking retribution for a “vendetta” (David Emmett’s word).


Quote:
He doesn’t get another ‘again’. I think that Dorna should sit him (Marquez) down and explain it to him in the frankest terms they can–that if he initiates contact with another rider, in a race, in practice, and there is contact, then he’s done for the season.”

This is Schwantz second part of the statement; he sets it up with something seemingly indisputable above, ‘you can’t just punt riders because you’re faster…’ THERFORE Marc should be sat down like a child, scolded, and put on probation, and if he fucks up, suspend his ass for the season!’

Kevin Schwantz didn’t talk so boldly about Rossi, did he? Hell none of these guys piling on Marc now ever had nor now have the balls to talk to or talk about Rossi this way, it really does get the royal treament. The Chinese word is kowtow, that where we get that word from, it’s an extreme bow that was show to the emperor.

Notice Schwantz didn’t speak in such an audacious way about Rossi ‘deliberately’ attacking Marc and causing him to crash (wait he blames Marc for that). He didn’t say Rossi should be on probation, in case he loses his mind again, did he? None of the reporter spoke or acted this way, or wrote articles calling for bans, disqualifications, right? I remember reading just about everything said on the matter, nobody spoke so boldly. Why? No way, Schwantz even gave Rossi wide berth and half credence for his insane conspiracy theory (which we have learned since, was Uccio’s conspiracy theory). Lets revisit the kiddy gloves that he used to describe what Rossi did, again a deliberate attack on a rider during a live race (apparently NOT the carnal sin anymore, that has been replaced with trying to restart your bike before the race and getting back into your grid spot, keep in mind it was space that shouldn’t have existed only because the officials made it up out of thin air, that is the new sin of crucifixion).

This is what Schwantz had to say about Rossi’s guilt for Sepang:

Quote:
“First Valentino stirs up trouble in the Thursday press conference complaining about Marc in Australia.” (Let me just point out how euphemistically, limp, muted, and chickenshit is this description of Rossi’s bizarre and wildly irrational press conference.) He goes on to say: “That gave Marc the perfect reason to go, OK, screw you, I will mess with you this weekend.” (Let me point out, this is all the substance Schwantz has to go on to believe (by faith no less) that Marc acted on it, and therefore engaged in a “feud”. That is it folks, you just read the entire indictment. For Marc’s blame) Now here is the meat and potatoes of Schwartz’s recognizing and admitting Rossi did something wrong: “Rossi then got tired of it, and later admitted that yes, he did something wrong.” Take about downplaying a crime. It wouldn’t be believable if I made it up, but that’s it folks, that is how harsh he described it, ho hum, Rossi got tired of it so he attacked Marc, move along, nothing to see here. Notice the leap, Schwantz makes in logic, from not knowing if Marc did something wrong to assuming he was guilty. Rossi’s reaction to attack Marc is all he based Marc's guilt on. Is this the voice we are going to listen to today? Can you imagine this happening in real life? Imagine if crazy people acted on their every whim, attacking people deliberately because of some paranoia, then a MotoGP champ concludes well it must be true because look, that crazy guy got “tired of it.”
This is the CONTEXT of Kevin Schwantz’s calls to sit Marc down and scold him like a child, the context of him asking for a season ban if contact is made again! This also happens to be the exact basis for “journalists”, fans on social media, and everybody else silly enough to buy into this line of reasoning. Of course they have arrived at an outrageous conclusion, they started with a faulty premise to begin with.
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Last edited by Jumkie; April 13th, 2018 at 03:19 PM.
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April 13th, 2018, 05:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
If you're the lead rider, you can take any line through the corner you please, it's still the passing rider's responsibility to safely execute the pass. It's strongly presumed unless the lead rider has made an obvious error, that they're going to cut back to the apex.
So Pedrosa and not Simoncelli should have been penalised in 2011?.

This is the problem. The rules have been different for years depending on the identity of the rider. Sure that has applied to MM, but it applies in spades to Rossi. It is a little late to be indignant about this incident given the block pass has been Rossi’s much acclaimed standard operating procedure all these years, and that his fans have actively reviled other riders for being peeved about incidents involving much more egregious fault when Rossi has been the perpetrator. As has been said, there would have been countless incidents like this one over the years if Rossi opponents had chosen not to stand their bike up in this situation. What is transpiring now is that there are 2 riders out there operating by Rossi rules.

I also loved Schwartz as a racer, as I loved Wayne Gardner a rider with a similar record and approach, but in his retirement find his utterances about as credible as I find Wayne’s ie not very, particularly given his pretty much opposite attitude to the Sepang 2015 incident, an admitted deliberately illegal move, as Jumkie has pointed out. If we are to accede to argumentum ad verecundiam then Rossi should have been black flagged in that race, because Casey Stoner said so.
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Last edited by michaelm; April 13th, 2018 at 07:28 PM.
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April 13th, 2018, 06:18 PM   #23
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Schwantz needs to watch this:

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=...eepyBasil.webm


It was just another of rossis "racecraft" moves. Originally I thought it was unintentional. But now, with time to see that and account for rossis irrational Marquez hate ...... I beginning to think the whole thing was intentional. rossis and Yamahs post incident behaviour has been pathetic and disgusting.

I dont watch gp to see how much rossi can manipulate till the other riders have had enough of the bitchiness. I watch for the racing and good riding. Its getting like back in the early 2000s when WSBK was way more interesting because if the proper battles between Edwards and Bayliss. Not the catty crap that was rossi v Biagi.

It was good to see rossi got burned for this one. I dont care if hes a danger to himself, but I do care when he tries his disgusting crap on others.
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Last edited by BarryMachine; April 13th, 2018 at 06:20 PM.
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April 13th, 2018, 07:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryMachine View Post
Schwantz needs to watch this:

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=...eepyBasil.webm


It was just another of rossis "racecraft" moves. Originally I thought it was unintentional. But now, with time to see that and account for rossis irrational Marquez hate ...... I beginning to think the whole thing was intentional. rossis and Yamahs post incident behaviour has been pathetic and disgusting.

I dont watch gp to see how much rossi can manipulate till the other riders have had enough of the bitchiness. I watch for the racing and good riding. Its getting like back in the early 2000s when WSBK was way more interesting because if the proper battles between Edwards and Bayliss. Not the catty crap that was rossi v Biagi.

It was good to see rossi got burned for this one. I dont care if hes a danger to himself, but I do care when he tries his disgusting crap on others.
From that onboard footage it sure does look like the slow guy moving over for the fast guy he's holding up!,time to step down Rossi old son,my granny could ride that thing quicker than you,I think he know's he's finished and will never see a world title again,all he can do these days is try to fuck up his rivals by whining and getting them penalised,as for Schwantz i used to love the guy when he was racing,right from the days of the transatlantic challenge,I once bid a lot of money for a set of his leathers at an auction at Donington, but he's fallen for the Rossi shite unfortunately.
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April 13th, 2018, 10:52 PM   #25
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Ahahaha. Kevin Schwantz Just schooled Marquez and the mouth breathers here are of course losing their shit over it.

I guess you only want to listen to former world champs when they talk against Rossi.

This is all way too hilarious.
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April 13th, 2018, 11:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryMachine View Post
Schwantz needs to watch this:

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=...eepyBasil.webm


It was just another of rossis "racecraft" moves. Originally I thought it was unintentional. But now, with time to see that and account for rossis irrational Marquez hate ...... I beginning to think the whole thing was intentional. rossis and Yamahs post incident behaviour has been pathetic and disgusting.

I dont watch gp to see how much rossi can manipulate till the other riders have had enough of the bitchiness. I watch for the racing and good riding. Its getting like back in the early 2000s when WSBK was way more interesting because if the proper battles between Edwards and Bayliss. Not the catty crap that was rossi v Biagi.

It was good to see rossi got burned for this one. I dont care if hes a danger to himself, but I do care when he tries his disgusting crap on others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyeman View Post
From that onboard footage it sure does look like the slow guy moving over for the fast guy he's holding up!,time to step down Rossi old son,my granny could ride that thing quicker than you,I think he know's he's finished and will never see a world title again,all he can do these days is try to fuck up his rivals by whining and getting them penalised,as for Schwantz i used to love the guy when he was racing,right from the days of the transatlantic challenge,I once bid a lot of money for a set of his leathers at an auction at Donington, but he's fallen for the Rossi shite unfortunately.
It only looks like Rossi leaving the door open to people that do not have much of an understanding of racing lines.



Rossi was on a line similar to the green (fastest line) through the corner. Since Marquez wasn't right behind him when he committed to the corner, he didn't think to take a defensive line but there would have been no reason for him to defend against a rider lapping 1 second quicker anyway! So Rossi was taking the fastest racing line throughout the track.

Some of you are expecting to see Rossi on the red or yellow line which would've defended the inside, but he would be slower on corner exit and turning overall slower laps. With Marc's pace, there was no reason to dive up the inside of Rossi and he knew Rossi was taking the wide racing line through the corner. Marc was in a mindset that made him believe Rossi would yield the line to him. That's funny because Marc NEVER yields the line to anyone.
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Last edited by moto vudu; April 13th, 2018 at 11:38 PM.
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April 13th, 2018, 11:52 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
It only looks like Rossi leaving the door open to people that do not have much of an understanding of racing lines.



Rossi was on a line similar to the green (fastest line) through the corner. Since Marquez wasn't right behind him when he committed to the corner, he didn't think to take a defensive line but there would have been no reason for him to defend against a rider lapping 1 second quicker anyway! So Rossi was taking the fastest racing line throughout the track.

Some of you are expecting to see Rossi on the red or yellow line which would've defended the inside, but he would be slower on corner exit and turning overall slower laps. With Marc's pace, there was no reason to dive up the inside of Rossi and he knew Rossi was taking the wide racing line through the corner. Marc was in a mindset that made him believe Rossi would yield the line to him. That's funny because Marc NEVER yields the line to anyone.
With the history between them i very much doubt Marquez believed Rossi would do anything other than make it difficult for him to pass let alone yield the line to him.
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April 13th, 2018, 11:57 PM   #28
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With the history between them i very much doubt Marquez believed Rossi would do anything other than make it difficult for him to pass let alone yield the line to him.
If that was the case, Marc would've waited one more corner and passed Rossi without any incident. It would've been much easier to pass Rossi in the next corner since Marc would've been closer.
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April 14th, 2018, 12:02 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
Rossi was on a line similar to the green (fastest line) through the corner. Since Marquez wasn't right behind him when he committed to the corner, he didn't think to take a defensive line but there would have been no reason for him to defend against a rider lapping 1 second quicker anyway! So Rossi was taking the fastest racing line throughout the track.

Some of you are expecting to see Rossi on the red or yellow line which would've defended the inside, but he would be slower on corner exit and turning overall slower laps. With Marc's pace, there was no reason to dive up the inside of Rossi and he knew Rossi was taking the wide racing line through the corner. Marc was in a mindset that made him believe Rossi would yield the line to him. That's funny because Marc NEVER yields the line to anyone.
Been a while so why not.

IMO only here and my take is based on re-watches of this incident only but here goes.

Both were on lines that would have allowed them to make the corner , just that neither was on a line that could have or would have taken them out of the other's path and only one was on a line that allowed him visibility of the other's actions or what was coming as they say.

Rossi was on and/or closer to a 'classic' line, the old wide entry, shallow apex and push wide line where Marquez was on the banzai line of very fast entry and then try to park it - a line on that would have seen Rossi back past anyway as Marquez' line was of no benefit to his acceleration out of the corner.

On that incident alone I see it as a pure racing incident, albeit an avoidable one were one rider to show a little bit of the 'old nous' of sitting tight knowing that he had superior pace but just needed to bide that time and place (IMO and I do expect a not popular one, but similar behaviours to the Rossi/Stoner one of years back in similar conditions with one rider far faster than the second - both producing a similar outcome and outcry).

We have all seen this before and will see again.





Quote:
Originally Posted by pyeman View Post
With the history between them i very much doubt Marquez believed Rossi would do anything other than make it difficult for him to pass let alone yield the line to him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
If that was the case, Marc would've waited one more corner and passed Rossi without any incident. It would've been much easier to pass Rossi in the next corner since Marc would've been closer.
Absolutely he should/could have waited, but he is a racer and, well ..............

I do wonder if the history played a part as no matter what, the two are not friends so one may well wonder as to whether things would have been different were the Yamaha to have been Vinales as an example.

Yes, certainly Marquez is a bit of a known 'barge merchant' where he will put his bike in a position that forces others to make a decision to fight or fold but he is not the greatest friend of Asparagus from reports and we all know Rossi's history.
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April 14th, 2018, 12:14 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
Been a while so why not.

IMO only here and my take is based on re-watches of this incident only but here goes.

Both were on lines that would have allowed them to make the corner , just that neither was on a line that could have or would have taken them out of the other's path and only one was on a line that allowed him visibility of the other's actions or what was coming as they say.

Rossi was on and/or closer to a 'classic' line, the old wide entry, shallow apex and push wide line where Marquez was on the banzai line of very fast entry and then try to park it - a line on that would have seen Rossi back past anyway as Marquez' line was of no benefit to his acceleration out of the corner.

On that incident alone I see it as a pure racing incident, albeit an avoidable one were one rider to show a little bit of the 'old nous' of sitting tight knowing that he had superior pace but just needed to bide that time and place (IMO and I do expect a not popular one, but similar behaviours to the Rossi/Stoner one of years back in similar conditions with one rider far faster than the second - both producing a similar outcome and outcry).

We have all seen this before and will see again.











Absolutely he should/could have waited, but he is a racer and, well ..............

I do wonder if the history played a part as no matter what, the two are not friends so one may well wonder as to whether things would have been different were the Yamaha to have been Vinales as an example.

Yes, certainly Marquez is a bit of a known 'barge merchant' where he will put his bike in a position that forces others to make a decision to fight or fold but he is not the greatest friend of Asparagus from reports and we all know Rossi's history.
I think it's a given that history played a part,they were told to shake hands and stop the public fighting but the feud has simmered on,Rossi wouldn't yield a line to Marquez if he was running as a backmarker 5 seconds a lap down
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