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January 29th, 2018, 05:02 PM   #81
Gaz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantamani46 View Post
Same track conditions every day. Rain then slowly drying track. Nothing different than the past days.
Tracks change every day so even from official day 1, to official day 2 you cannot say same track conditions but by all means may be able to say similar.

Just as a guide but just because the ambient temperature is the same it does not mean the same level of grip exists, nor that the wind is from the same direction, nor that the track has dried the same in all places, nor that the rubber laid down is having a positive/negative effect and so forth.

IMO here but a guy I have spoken with who has raced at high levels would always say that one of the pure fun aspects of testing is the constant changes that occur in behaviours of the track and bike, as just when you think you have it dialled, you become a chump.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MdubSTYLIE View Post
I would be shocked if Stoner fan and the opposed didn't look at stoners times compared to yesterday. I don't understand why that alone is disrespectful. Nothing wrong with comparing.
Comparisons are absolutely fair and it is why one cannot determine a true or truly fair comparison as without insight into that the riders are actually testing and/or trying to achieve one is purely guessing the intent of the test.

For mine, CS would have been tasked to test a component or setting only not to test a race setup for, as we know each rider's race setup is different and thus any 'race setup' he tested would be as useless as is the wishes of those wanting him back.

The riders in the official tests would certainly have been testing some of the componentry that was tested by their team test riders (and despite all the ridicule, at least the Ducati test rider was close in times to his team riders as the other manufacturers languished behind) but moreso would have been testing whilst looking for a race pace setup. They may have done longer runs to test the performance on used rubber which may not have been done earlier in the week and so forth.

Personally, I reckon it would make ridiculously interesting reading (not that we would even find out) to know the test schedule and purpose for all riders so that we could sit and watch for ourselves. I suspect that knowing what was happenning and why would open our eyes to the way the teams work and how the different riders approach the same task.

We can all put sh*t on CS for testing and wonder 'what if', but as I have said a few times and elsewhere, the fact remains that he is irrelevant to the main game today as is our opinion of him.
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January 29th, 2018, 05:06 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
Agreed.

It looks like Rossi was correct about the 2017 concept being a mistake. He firmly redirected Yamaha's attention back towards evolving the 2016 concept. Great that MV will benefit from the old hand guiding the team's direction too.

Will it be enough? It looks like Ducati has made a huge step forward in terms of mid-corner turning.

But the question now is louder ............... who's direction was followed with the design of the 2017 bike that caused/led to so many issues or, was it a case of 'perfect storm' in that on it's day, it was magic but getting that day was tough?

IMO here, but Zarco will be a good tell tale.
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January 29th, 2018, 05:10 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
But the question now is louder ............... who's direction was followed with the design of the 2017 bike that caused/led to so many issues or, was it a case of 'perfect storm' in that on it's day, it was magic but getting that day was tough?

IMO here, but Zarco will be a good tell tale.
It was Mav who liked the 17 chassis. Mav was much quicker than Rossi immediately on the 17, so while Rossi complained about his feeling with the bike, he "went against his instinct" and persisted with the bike after Mav's domination of the entire pre-season. He started whining more and more while Mav kept destroying the opposition - even during the first few races.

Then, it all started coming apart at Jerez.

The positive thing is that they both agree on following the 16 direction now, so hopefully we will see two strong Yamahas. I feel like their presence was missed last year. Thankfully, Ducati was fantastic and filled the spot of the missing Yamahas.
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January 29th, 2018, 05:11 PM   #84
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BTW - Dovi is raving about his feeling with the Ducati. Augurs well.
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January 29th, 2018, 05:17 PM   #85
Gaz
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
It was Mav who liked the 17 chassis. Mav was much quicker than Rossi immediately on the 17, so while Rossi complained about his feeling with the bike, he "went against his instinct" and persisted with the bike after Mav's domination of the entire pre-season. He started whining more and more while Mav kept destroying the opposition - even during the first few races.
But the bike at initial test would have been designed around VR's feelings not MV as before test 1, MV was not able to ride the bike, thus the bike was either based on VR, JL (who had long signed to leave) or wild hunches back at the factory.

Mav liking it initially does not mean that he had a say in it's development up until that point and nor going forward (although the going forward coudl be a fair bet that his performances influences Yamaha's thinking)

My take on it is that Yamaha listened in latter 2016, then again in 2017 but got it wrong or more likely, went to far one way then struggled because of the rules (limited testing and bike changes) to revert back to a workable bike


On a personal level, I find it very difficult to believe that Yamaha would not have listened to their golden goose .... they may well have gotten things wrong but I doubt that they did not listen
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January 29th, 2018, 06:55 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
You yourself would seem simultaneously to be an example of the type of fan he disdained, and to provide justification for him doing so.

As I said, those were the only times that were available to be discussed then, not that I personally discussed them anyway, and he has had times in testing competitive with the actual race riders frequently in the past including last year iirc when he was 4 years into his retirement, so if it is the case that he finally can't jump off his boat and run competitive times now that he is 5 years retired it is not a great knock on him I would have thought.

Interesting that those who agreed with you are 2 posters who always slated Stoner even when he was topping the time sheets and winning races and world titles in the actual show, reinforcing my point that there are posters who are as obsessed with Stoner in a negative sense at least as much as those who are obsessed with him in terms of rating or over-rating him positively, and you yourself seem to have little to say other than hooray Rossi, boo Stoner or whoever might be Rossi's threat de jour currently or was a threat to him in the past.

If your point is that posters on a fan forum are biased this is hardly grounds for stopping the presses, and you are rather obviously among those including me who are biased.
It’s hilarious when someone uses the “Biased” accusation in this forum. Really?

By the way, I am not the only “Kind of fan” Casey Stoner has a disdain for. Casey Stoner has a disdain for those who worship at his altar just as much. Maybe more. Casey Stoner was only in it for Casey Stoner and when Casey Stoner couldn’t handle the heat anymore, he took his ball and went home. And Unlike his contemporaries he couldn’t care less about supporting the next generation of riders either.

Being a great motorcycle racer is not just riding fast and not even winning a couple of championships. It’s about having the mental fortitude to show up and ride even when things are not exactly how you want them to be. And that’s why Nicky Hayden, with one championship less is a hundred times greater a racer than Stoner ever will be.
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January 29th, 2018, 07:58 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by synn View Post
It’s hilarious when someone uses the “Biased” accusation in this forum. Really?

By the way, I am not the only “Kind of fan” Casey Stoner has a disdain for. Casey Stoner has a disdain for those who worship at his altar just as much. Maybe more. Casey Stoner was only in it for Casey Stoner and when Casey Stoner couldn’t handle the heat anymore, he took his ball and went home. And Unlike his contemporaries he couldn’t care less about supporting the next generation of riders either.

Being a great motorcycle racer is not just riding fast and not even winning a couple of championships. It’s about having the mental fortitude to show up and ride even when things are not exactly how you want them to be. And that’s why Nicky Hayden, with one championship less is a hundred times greater a racer than Stoner ever will be.
You have accused me in the past of not reading your posts ( I do, but speed read them, your prose style not exactly being one to savour apart from anything else), but a major point of the post to which you replied was that everyone on a fan forum such as this obviously including me is extremely likely to be biased. I have no problem with anyone having a different opinon from mine btw and arguing it, my problem is with those who consider that only other people are biased, among whom I strongly suspect you number.

In any case as I have also said people were talking about Stoner's lap times when his were the lap times available to be talked about, and had moved on, it would rather seem to be you who is pre-occupied with Stoner. I guess motherhood statements as in this most recent post are at least an improvement on argumentum ad hominem towards other posters, your usual stock in trade.

Appropos the real testing, Ducati and Jack Miller are looking reasonably good thus far, which pleases me, supporting Ducati being my default position prior to Stoner, and Miller being both a compatriot and someone I followed avidly when he contended in moto 3, and it being difficult for me to continue to support Jorge Lorenzo now.
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January 29th, 2018, 07:59 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
But the bike at initial test would have been designed around VR's feelings not MV as before test 1, MV was not able to ride the bike, thus the bike was either based on VR, JL (who had long signed to leave) or wild hunches back at the factory.

Mav liking it initially does not mean that he had a say in it's development up until that point and nor going forward (although the going forward coudl be a fair bet that his performances influences Yamaha's thinking)

My take on it is that Yamaha listened in latter 2016, then again in 2017 but got it wrong or more likely, went to far one way then struggled because of the rules (limited testing and bike changes) to revert back to a workable bike


On a personal level, I find it very difficult to believe that Yamaha would not have listened to their golden goose .... they may well have gotten things wrong but I doubt that they did not listen
Definitely the 17 bike sought to address the weakpoints which Rossi told Yamaha to fix. My point was that Rossi was skeptical of the 17 bike after its debut (his contemporaneous comments suggest that), whereas Mav was extremely fast which caused Rossi to doubt his initial sensations.

When Rossi rode the bike more, he grew increasingly unconvinced but Mav's immense speed meant that he wasn't confident enough to throw the toys out of the pram looking for changes.
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January 29th, 2018, 08:06 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
You have accused me in the past of not reading your posts ( I do, but speed read them, your prose style not exactly being one to savour apart from anything else), but a major point of the post to which you replied was that everyone on a fan forum such as this obviously including me is extremely likely to be biased. I have no problem with anyone having a different opinon from mine btw and arguing it, my problem is with those who consider that only other people are biased, among whom I strongly suspect you number.

In any case as I have also said people were talking about Stoner's lap times when his were the lap times available to be talked about, and had moved on, it would rather seem to be you who is pre-occupied with Stoner. I guess motherhood statements as in this most recent post are at least an improvement on argumentum ad hominem towards other posters, your usual stock in trade.

Appropos the real testing, Ducati and Jack Miller are looking reasonably good thus far, which pleases me, supporting Ducati being my default position prior to Stoner, and Miller being both a compatriot and someone I followed avidly when he contended in moto 3, and it being difficult for me to continue to support Jorge Lorenzo now.
Buddy, if you wanted a prose style the author devotes hours on, you should subscribe to Reader’s Digest, not be on a forum.
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January 29th, 2018, 08:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by synn View Post
By the way, I am not the only “Kind of fan” Casey Stoner has a disdain for. Casey Stoner has a disdain for those who worship at his altar just as much. Maybe more. Casey Stoner was only in it for Casey Stoner and when Casey Stoner couldn’t handle the heat anymore, he took his ball and went home. And Unlike his contemporaries he couldn’t care less about supporting the next generation of riders either.
Suggest you research a little on this point as he helped a number of riders of smaller capacity classes greatly when in the paddock and even made mention of the disparity in treatment between these same riders in his farewell/retirement speech.

He certainly has not started a junior academy or anything of similar nature just as many riders who have been and gone have not, and nor do they have the responsibility to do so either.

As for CS, well I know people who have met him (at and away from the track) and funny thing is, those that had dealings when in race mode call him a 'prick' (to soften it a little - pun intended) but outside of race mode (and some are the same people) say that he is an incredibly likable guy, albeit a total 'introverted' character.

You are however correct in that he took his ball and went home ......... and should be admired for it as over the years we have heard many people spit a dummy and suggest that if X does not happen then I may as well quit, only to stay as the bluff is called or X happens.

IMO here, but to threaten to quit and do so is a very admirable trait
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