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November 30th, 2017, 01:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
Some posters think they know more than Furusawa.

https://motomatters.com/interview/20...iting_ita.html

"This competitive bike had been developed with the help of Valentino by taking a lot of time. With his coming back to Yamaha, a course of its development will be even clearer."

Masao Furusawa reflects on MotoGP career | Interview | Crash

"That was Christmas time in 2003. Then Valentino Rossi came to Yamaha and rode for the first time here [at Sepang] in January 2004. He is really a genius. He rode the crossplane bike for just five or six laps and then came back and said 'this bike is the best one'. Even though it was slow, because the power was not so much."
So Vinales was involved in the design of the initial version of the 2017 chassis despite being a Suzuki rider at the time, after winning 3 early season races and leading the title was the impetus behind ditching the tyre chosen in the off-season for the 2017 season which he had been using to such good effect with the initial 2017 chassis, then drove the further chassis changes for the remainder of the year, only for the wise Rossi to finally bring him into line and insist on a return to the chassis which didn't win the title in 2016 for Yamaha anyway?.

The bottom line is 1 title in 5 years since Rossi's expertise became available to Yamaha again, a title not won by Rossi anyway and which required both Honda coming up with a dud bike and MM choosing to throw that bike down the road repetitively by refusing to accept anything but race wins despite the bike's limitations.

My prediction is that Rossi will not get younger next season, and MM will get older at the same rate as him.
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November 30th, 2017, 02:44 PM   #12
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So Vinales was involved in the design of the initial version of the 2017 chassis despite being a Suzuki rider at the time,
No-one said that. Yamaha designed the bike, gave it to VR and MV at Valencia for feedback, and MV said it was an improvement, but VR said it was a step backwards.

Riders give feedback. They don't design bikes. Their job is to describe what a given bike is doing well, doing poorly (and the cause - i.e. whether that is caused by a tyre, the mechanical grip of the chassis, the electronics, or the set-up). Then, the task is to prioritize the problems to fix in order of importance.

The engineers then need to effect the feedback.

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
after winning 3 early season races and leading the title was the impetus behind ditching the tyre chosen in the off-season for the 2017 season which he had been using to such good effect with the initial 2017 chassis, then drove the further chassis changes for the remainder of the year, only for the wise Rossi to finally bring him into line and insist on a return to the chassis which didn't win the title in 2016 for Yamaha anyway?.
MV now agrees that the 2016 is a better base. The 2017 bike was very hit and miss - particularly in the wet (and we had many wet races this year, robbing MV of a shot at victory).

MV got smoked at Jerez on the 2017 chassis and the off-season tyre. The Yamaha had massive issues in low grip tracks even with MV's preferred configuration.

The reality is that the inconsistency of the 2017 chassis was compounded for MV because he struggled greatly on the new tyre - more than anyone else on the grid.

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
The bottom line is 1 title in 5 years since Rossi's expertise became available to Yamaha again, a title not won by Rossi anyway and which required both Honda coming up with a dud bike and MM choosing to throw that bike down the road repetitively by refusing to accept anything but race wins despite the bike's limitations.
That speaks more to Marc Marquez' talent than anything.

A 37 year-old VR beating MM in 2015 says something about his ability to develop a bike. The reality is that MM crashed so often because he was forced to push so hard to keep up with the faster Yamahas. He didn't have that problem in 2014, and his race times was generally much faster in 2015 than 2014...

Last edited by RCV600RR; November 30th, 2017 at 02:55 PM.
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November 30th, 2017, 03:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
About the tyre change?.
I thought only the chassis - I believe he still prefers the tyre he won on.
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November 30th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
No-one said that. Yamaha designed the bike, gave it to VR and MV at Valencia for feedback, and MV said it was an improvement, but VR said it was a step backwards.

Riders give feedback. They don't design bikes. Their job is to describe what a given bike is doing well, doing poorly (and the cause - i.e. whether that is caused by a tyre, the mechanical grip of the chassis, the electronics, or the set-up). Then, the task is to prioritize the problems to fix in order of importance.

The engineers then need to effect the feedback.


MV now agrees that the 2016 is a better base. The 2017 bike was very hit and miss - particularly in the wet (and we had many wet races this year, robbing MV of a shot at victory).

MV got smoked at Jerez on the 2017 chassis and the off-season tyre. The Yamaha had massive issues in low grip tracks even with MV's preferred configuration.

The reality is that the inconsistency of the 2017 chassis was compounded for MV because he struggled greatly on the new tyre - more than anyone else on the grid.


That speaks more to Marc Marquez' talent than anything.

A 37 year-old VR beating MM in 2015 says something about his ability to develop a bike. The reality is that MM crashed so often because he was forced to push so hard to keep up with the faster Yamahas. He didn't have that problem in 2014, and his race times was generally much faster in 2015 than 2014...
I don't detract from Rossi's prowess in his heyday, he may even have been at least MM's equal as a 25 year old himself. It can never be known, but my gut feeling is that peak MM (if he is there yet) has a little more raw pace than peak Valentino, but VR might have got him on tactics/strategy and development/set-up ability, although we don't have much evidence that recent or even close to peak Rossi stands up well in a close title battle.

It is indeed creditable that a late 30s Rossi is so close to being competitive with MM, but MM being at his peak and so good is my whole point; even with the 2015 Yamaha possibly being the better bike, Yamaha won only because MM wouldn't settle for achieving anything other than a win in a given race. I believe the numbers say if he had accepted the positions from which he crashed out he would have won the 2015 title. So Valentino to win the "precious"/glorious 8th/10th needs both HRC to come up with a dud bike and MM to race injudiciously for a whole season again and possibly an unusual number of wet races as occurred in 2015, with the added problem of riders of bikes other than factory Hondas and Yamahas possibly being in contention for the title.

The arrogant Honda engineering culture can always come up with retrograde 'improvements' for the Honda, and MM hasn't demonstrated the ability of Doohan and possibly Rossi to influence them away from the wrong path. However while MM admittedly just nearly threw his bike down the road unnecessarily with the title still in play, I wouldn't count on him doing so if Rossi was the other contender.

So what we have is Rossi at age 38 being the Yamaha factory's focus rather than someone younger and possibly faster in the other seat, and Pedrosa being basically a contracted wing man, which to me means more MM titles unless Ducati can catch lightning in a bottle again or KTM advance their bike rapidly.

Hence as I have posted previously imo Rossi, great though his past achievements may have been, is holding the sport in general and Yamaha in particular to ransom in pursuit of a 10th title he never needed anyway. Again imo, Yamaha would be better/would have been better backing a younger rider who might have the raw pace to compete with MM, pace which both Lorenzo and Vinales showed they potentially have/had although perhaps only in limited circumstances. The tyre situation is a case in point; surely Yamaha in terms of title chances would be better pushing for a tyre which suited Vinales, and would have been better backing Lorenzo and pushing for a tyre of his preference, given tyres which suit Valentino suit MM just as well or better as the most recent season demonstrated.
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Last edited by michaelm; December 2nd, 2017 at 11:39 AM.
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November 30th, 2017, 04:56 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post

It is indeed creditable that a late 30s Rossi is so close to being competitive with MM, but MM being at his peak and so good is my whole point; even with the 2015 Yamaha possibly being the better bike, Yamaha won only because MM wouldn't settle for achieving anything other than a win in a given race.
I generally like the points in the rest of your post, though I think this undersells what Yamaha/Rossi/JL achieved in 2015.

MM had the same attitude in 2014. He would not cede a possible win. So, what changed in 2015? Yamaha caught up and were blisteringly fast.

One might say that Honda made a step back. I think they lost some smoothness with the engine, but the Honda was still producing very strong race times (faster than 2014, generally).

For example, MM was battling Rossi for the lead at Argentina when they collided, and even at Assen was miles in front of JL (who is super fast as Assen). Similarly, he was battling JL for the lead at Catalunya when he crashed, was battling Rossi for the lead at Silverstone in the wet when he crashed, and was battling JL for the lead at Aragon when he crashed. Yamaha was very fast and putting the pressure on, which made him override.

Anyway, people crash when they don't know their own limit. MM didn't know his limit in 2015 well enough.
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November 30th, 2017, 05:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
I generally like the points in the rest of your post, though I think this undersells what Yamaha/Rossi/JL achieved in 2015.

MM had the same attitude in 2014. He would not cede a possible win. So, what changed in 2015? Yamaha caught up and were blisteringly fast.

One might say that Honda made a step back. I think they lost some smoothness with the engine, but the Honda was still producing very strong race times (faster than 2014, generally).

For example, MM was battling Rossi for the lead at Argentina when they collided, and even at Assen was miles in front of JL (who is super fast as Assen). Similarly, he was battling JL for the lead at Catalunya when he crashed, was battling Rossi for the lead at Silverstone in the wet when he crashed, and was battling JL for the lead at Aragon when he crashed. Yamaha was very fast and putting the pressure on, which made him override.

Anyway, people crash when they don't know their own limit. MM didn't know his limit in 2015 well enough.
Sure, but it was exactly my point that MM crashed out going for race wins in every race in 2015 regardless of circumstances, and apparently despite HRC's counseling, which was no longer a viable tactic/strategy at that time as opposed to the previous season. He seemed to learn from that season and prioritised a title win over race wins in 2016, accepting podiums etc when competing for the race win would have necessitated over-riding. Perhaps Valencia 2017 was a sign of him reverting to type, but he would have known where Dovi was and as I said I believe could be counted on to be more ruthless/completely ruthless if Rossi was the other title contender, particularly after the events of late season 2015, whatever version of those events one chooses to accept.
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November 30th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #17
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Sure, but it was exactly my point that MM crashed out going for race wins in every race in 2015 regardless of circumstances, and apparently despite HRC's counseling, which was no longer a viable tactic/strategy at that time as opposed to the previous season. He seemed to learn from that season and prioritised a title win over race wins in 2016, accepting podiums etc when competing for the race win would have necessitated over-riding. Perhaps Valencia 2017 was a sign of him reverting to type, but he would have known where Dovi was and as I said I believe could be counted on to be more ruthless/completely ruthless if Rossi was the other title contender, particularly after the events of late season 2015, whatever version of those events one chooses to accept.
I think Valencia this year was not so much a return to 2015 form but being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Riding (much?) slower that he was able to was causing him to make mistakes, he got in front of Zarco and was expecting an immidiate fightback which wasn't coming and braked too late. I thought that he may have run the wrong strategy and would've been better leading from the start as he looked to have had pace no one else could match. What we saw IMO was a mistake coming from his new attitude of championship first and not race wins.
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December 2nd, 2017, 01:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
I generally like the points in the rest of your post, though I think this undersells what Yamaha/Rossi/JL achieved in 2015.



MM had the same attitude in 2014. He would not cede a possible win. So, what changed in 2015? Yamaha caught up and were blisteringly fast.



One might say that Honda made a step back. I think they lost some smoothness with the engine, but the Honda was still producing very strong race times (faster than 2014, generally).



For example, MM was battling Rossi for the lead at Argentina when they collided, and even at Assen was miles in front of JL (who is super fast as Assen). Similarly, he was battling JL for the lead at Catalunya when he crashed, was battling Rossi for the lead at Silverstone in the wet when he crashed, and was battling JL for the lead at Aragon when he crashed. Yamaha was very fast and putting the pressure on, which made him override.



Anyway, people crash when they don't know their own limit. MM didn't know his limit in 2015 well enough.


In 2015 Yamaha introduces their seamless gearbox.
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December 2nd, 2017, 03:57 PM   #19
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I don't detract from Rossi's prowess in his heyday, he may even have been at least MM's equal as a 25 year old himself. It can never be known, but my gut feeling is that peak MM (if he is there yet) has a little more raw pace than peak Valentino, but VR might have got him on tactics/strategy and development/set-up ability, although we don't have much evidence that recent or even close to peak Rossi stands up well in a close title battle.

It is indeed creditable that a late 30s Rossi is so close to being competitive with MM, but MM being at his peak and so good is my whole point; even with the 2015 Yamaha possibly being the better bike, Yamaha won only because MM wouldn't settle for achieving anything other than a win in a given race. I believe the numbers say if he had accepted the positions from which he crashed out he would have won the 2015 title. So Valentino to win the "precious"/glorious 8th/10th needs both HRC to come up with a dud bike and MM to race injudiciously for a whole season again and possibly an unusual number of wet races as occurred in 2015, with the added problem of riders of bikes other than factory Hondas and Yamahas possibly being in contention for the title.

The arrogant Honda engineering culture can always come up with retrograde 'improvements' for the Honda, and MM hasn't demonstrated the ability of Doohan and possibly Rossi to influence them away from the wrong path. However while MM admittedly just nearly threw his bike down the road unnecessarily with the title still in play, I wouldn't count on him doing so if Rossi was the other contender.

So what we have is Rossi at age 38 being the Yamaha factory's focus rather than someone younger and possibly faster in the other seat, and Pedrosa being basically a contracted wing man, which to me means more MM titles unless Ducati can catch lightning in a bottle again or KTM advance their bike rapidly.

Hence as I have posted previously imo Rossi, great though his past achievements may have been, is holding the sport in general and Yamaha in particular to ransom in pursuit of a 10th title he never needed anyway. Again imo, Yamaha would be better/would have been better backing a younger rider who might have the raw pace to compete with MM, pace which both Lorenzo and Vinales showed they potentially have/had although perhaps only in limited circumstances. The tyre situation is a case in point; surely Yamaha in terms of title chances would be better pushing for a tyre which suited Vinales, and would have been better backing Lorenzo and pushing for a tyre of his preference, given tyres which suit Valentino suit MM just as well or better as the most recent season demonstrated.
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December 6th, 2017, 04:22 PM   #20
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I find more outrageous that they've ranked Rossi ahead of Zarco

gotta keep the boppers happy I guess
What a crock. Zarco and Petrucci were on satellite bikes and had more impact on the series than either Yamaha-MovieStar chump. Those guys made the series much more interesting this year. And I am grateful to Zarco and Petrucci. I would rather see them on the Yamahas, I think

I might put Andrea ahead of Marc, believe it or not. Although, that last save by Marc was something. And will cement him in my mind as THE phenom. (I like debates, so it's open whether he is it or not).

Considering how people have responded to my "contender" comment, I suppose some might not understand my opinion. Here is how this works: Grown-ups make mistakes - learn from mistakes made - acknowledge mistakes - fix practices to avoid same mistakes, again, and f'ing go on with f'ing life. Capisce? Andrea had a fantastic year, and Ducati could not have done it without him. (Same story at Honda, really).

Anyway, .........
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