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October 30th, 2017, 01:06 AM   #81
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I don't understand all the crap Ducati is copping for team orders and the mysterious map 8 setting. I quietly confident map 8 was not the cause of the front folding on J Lo in turn 15. Damn, he was luck to finish after that, how many front end washouts do you see saved in the wet. It could have all over for JL and Dovi's title hopes very easily after that.
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October 30th, 2017, 01:40 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by 33 Coupe View Post
I don't understand all the crap Ducati is copping for team orders and the mysterious map 8 setting. I quietly confident map 8 was not the cause of the front folding on J Lo in turn 15. Damn, he was luck to finish after that, how many front end washouts do you see saved in the wet. It could have all over for JL and Dovi's title hopes very easily after that.
Before the front end folded Lorenzo had a gap that came considerably down after the suggestion. The front end folding could've been due to a lapse in concentration after slowing down to let Dovi through. We don't know for sure but the front end folding doesn't mean that mean that team orders weren't in place.
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October 30th, 2017, 01:51 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Before the front end folded Lorenzo had a gap that came considerably down after the suggestion. The front end folding could've been due to a lapse in concentration after slowing down to let Dovi through. We don't know for sure but the front end folding doesn't mean that mean that team orders weren't in place.
But likewise a diminishing gap does not mean that team orders were in place.

One thing that has been very evident this season is that Dovi manages both the race and more importantly his tyres (generally speaking, PI was more an aberration) such that he is stronger at the end of the race than most competitors. Likewise, JL has often started like a scaled cat only to drop off in pace with an occasional pickup nearer the end but more often he gets to a position and hangs there or thereabouts.

Sure map 8 may be suspicious, but then again, the race also played for the two riders in similar terms to their race management this season.
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October 30th, 2017, 02:09 AM   #84
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But likewise a diminishing gap does not mean that team orders were in place.

One thing that has been very evident this season is that Dovi manages both the race and more importantly his tyres (generally speaking, PI was more an aberration) such that he is stronger at the end of the race than most competitors. Likewise, JL has often started like a scaled cat only to drop off in pace with an occasional pickup nearer the end but more often he gets to a position and hangs there or thereabouts.

Sure map 8 may be suspicious, but then again, the race also played for the two riders in similar terms to their race management this season.
You're right. We won't ever know for sure. Readings admission last week and Lorenzos reaction in Parc ferme do point to team orders though. But neither of those things mean it happened either.
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October 30th, 2017, 02:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
You're right. We won't ever know for sure. Readings admission last week and Lorenzos reaction in Parc ferme do point to team orders though. But neither of those things mean it happened either.
If Jorge was annoyed it may have been because the message actually was a team order; that they thought he needed a reminder could possibly have been offensive to him, as he pretty much has said he knew what he had to do. I would expect any rider for a major ream to ride for a team-mate in contention in this circumstance, although his team-mate basically having very little chance and being dependent on MM crashing or having a mechanical DNF to win the title would make it harder to give up a first Ducati win, something Valentino never managed, if he did do so. If he did, I like his chances at Valencia, where it is quite unlikely giving up a single place to Dovi will make a difference to the title outcome.

I take Gazís point that Dovi has been stronger at the end of races pretty much all year though as well.
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Last edited by michaelm; October 30th, 2017 at 02:46 AM.
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October 30th, 2017, 03:58 AM   #86
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From his comments I think Lorenzo was confident he could've challenged for the win whether his confidence was warranted or not we don't know. He's been fading this year down the stretch but did have a smarter strategy and the rain could've helped him with tyre life. He was ecstatic with his other podiums but this one was an almost complete 180 in attitude, he did the team thing or feels he did and it could just simply be something he was totally uncomfortable doing. He could feel like he was expected to help Ducati(in his opinion)cheat. He could feel that was his last shot at winning this season with Ducati having a less than stellar record at Valencia. He might feel now that with the championship where it is even if he has the pace to win he will be told not to in Valencia. He knows how he feels on the bike better than anyone here does and he genuinely might not think that he can ride the Ducati to a win under normal conditions. It could so many things and a combination, he was caught in a horrible situation I'm sure he did want to be in and was going to cop crap for it no matter which way he went.

Something I just considered is for Lorenzo in a way it's Deja vu from Valencia 2015 in that if he wins in Valencia his team/factory will be disappointed that the championship didn't go the way they had hoped. Instead of excitement and happiness he will be surrounded by disappointment.
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October 30th, 2017, 04:22 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
From his comments I think Lorenzo was confident he could've challenged for the win whether his confidence was warranted or not we don't know. He's been fading this year down the stretch but did have a smarter strategy and the rain could've helped him with tyre life. He was ecstatic with his other podiums but this one was an almost complete 180 in attitude, he did the team thing or feels he did and it could just simply be something he was totally uncomfortable doing. He could feel like he was expected to help Ducati(in his opinion)cheat. He could feel that was his last shot at winning this season with Ducati having a less than stellar record at Valencia. He might feel now that with the championship where it is even if he has the pace to win he will be told not to in Valencia. He knows how he feels on the bike better than anyone here does and he genuinely might not think that he can ride the Ducati to a win under normal conditions. It could so many things and a combination, he was caught in a horrible situation I'm sure he did want to be in and was going to cop crap for it no matter which way he went.

Something I just considered is for Lorenzo in a way it's Deja vu from Valencia 2015 in that if he wins in Valencia his team/factory will be disappointed that the championship didn't go the way they had hoped. Instead of excitement and happiness he will be surrounded by disappointment.
We have been to Valencia before in this circumstance, in 2013, despite all blandishments from JL to race him a then very young MM took the points and the title. It is going to take a mechanical basically, or a very strange riding error, there aren't the riders and bikes out there who can restrict MM to worse than 10th however hard they try to block him particularly since he is entirely likely to be starting from considerably better than 10th on the grid.

If MM is running 4th in the later laps I doubt there would be any requirement for JL to give up a prospective win at Valencia, which is a great track for Jorge but as you say not so much for Ducati. I don't think he would have regarded it as cheating to give way to Dovi at Sepang if he did, this would actually be hypocrital given his attitude at Motegi 2010, but as you say he may well think another chance for a Ducati win for him might be a long time coming, with such a win alone meaning he would surpass Rossi at Ducati which could just possibly be a motive for him, and the chance for Dovi for which he has made the sacrifice (again if he did) being rather a slim one as I have said. I agree it is entirely possible for Jorge to have worked out how to be faster than Dovi in an individual race particularly in unusual conditions, he is no slouch and has had nearly a whole season to do so.

Last edited by michaelm; October 30th, 2017 at 04:25 AM.
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October 30th, 2017, 04:57 AM   #88
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As I stated , I don't think it's a big deal as he should try and help his teammate and team win a title, but has anyone who doesn't think he let Dovi through checked out lap analysis. It's pretty telling that the lap Dovi went by, Lorenzo's top speed dropped close to 20 kph over his high just a few laps earlier. The blip he had with the front was minute compared to many as they had to show it in slow motion and Lorenzo never flinched. They have those type moments a dozen times or more in a wet race. The fact that Nick Harris immediately went into defense mode says a lot as well. Like I said, no big deal, but please don't insult the fans and say it wasnt
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October 30th, 2017, 05:42 AM   #89
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At least now you're using your imagination, too bad your intelligence hasn't kicked in yet.

I've only been quiet because I've been busy with real life shit. You'll fail to insult me by pointing out that I've been spending more time furthering my career and making money than wasting countless hours on this forum countering all your BS conspiracy theories.

Now you're wanting to challenge me face to face to a fight? You don't feel too old for that? I wouldn't feel right fighting an elder wearing an oxygen mask... even if he has a #93 sticker on it.
It continues to amuse to see you Rossi 2015 conspiracy theory adherents expostulate about others being conspiracy theorists.

MM just won PI 2017 with the same tactical approach he applied in 2015, the only tactics which have been in any way successful for him at PI in the premier class, btw.
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October 30th, 2017, 06:18 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
If Jorge was annoyed it may have been because the message actually was a team order; that they thought he needed a reminder could possibly have been offensive to him, as he pretty much has said he knew what he had to do. I would expect any rider for a major ream to ride for a team-mate in contention in this circumstance, although his team-mate basically having very little chance and being dependent on MM crashing or having a mechanical DNF to win the title would make it harder to give up a first Ducati win, something Valentino never managed, if he did do so. If he did, I like his chances at Valencia, where it is quite unlikely giving up a single place to Dovi will make a difference to the title outcome.

I take Gazís point that Dovi has been stronger at the end of races pretty much all year though as well.
You may be sure that Rossi saw the video of the race and knew that Lorenzo had done what he never accomplished. That said, it was a vastly different Duc.
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