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October 22nd, 2017, 02:10 PM   #91
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When you look at all the bikes on the grid this year and take out Marquez all three top manufacturers have been inconsistent. IMO adaptability is the most important thing in the Michelin control tyre era so far and Marquez is head and shoulders above everyone else in that department. It took Honda 6 or 7 rounds to come to grips with their new engine during which time Marquez was as inconsistent as everyone has been. Once Honda improved the engine side of things he hasn't been off the podium other than his mechanical. That's the rider making the difference when no one else can even buy consistency ATM including others riding the same bike as him.

Ducati have had similar consistency issues as a Honda being ridden by everyone not named Marc and I suspect that if not for all the chassis changes Yamaha may have followed the same pattern as everyone else rather than the complete drop off that happened.

Last edited by p4p1; October 22nd, 2017 at 02:12 PM.
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October 22nd, 2017, 02:14 PM   #92
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So, will Yamaha try to convince Rossi to retire so they can keep Zarco or is the sponsorship he brings invaluable to the team. Right now, i would think Honda and Suzuki will be drawing up plans to offer Zarco a contract around summer break next year for 19-20. Yamaha have already lost Lorenzo and i wouldnt be surprised if Vinales will at least entertains offers from Suzuki or KTM after having his championship derailed by his teammates actions. Rumor has it that the Red Bull furor is offering Marquez a blank check but now is not the time for Marquez to jump ship. He seems happy with Honda, they will pay upwards of 20 million to keep him and the bike is coming good. I see the next few years looking more like 10-11 win title years than the title years we have seen in 16-17?. If the KTM stays on its impressive learning curve and looks like it could be a front runner with a rider,Vinales just might take a big check. Of course, Zarco could fall flat on his face on the 17 M1 next year and this would be a moot point.lol
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October 22nd, 2017, 02:24 PM   #93
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Jack's happy - https://www.redbull.com/au-en/jack-m...017-race-recap










Oh, go westy!
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October 22nd, 2017, 02:27 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
So, will Yamaha try to convince Rossi to retire so they can keep Zarco or is the sponsorship he brings invaluable to the team.


Read a story a week or two ago that said that Yamaha and DORNA have made it very clear to Rossi that if, and it said IF he wants to place a team into MotoGP then he has the Tech3 bikes and licence, thus his money stays with Yamaha.

Story was that KTM had been talking with Poncharal who 'feels something in the wind).

None of the report was official but was factored on paddock rumours and suspicion .......... will see if I can find it but it was an obscure off the cuff type of thing
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October 22nd, 2017, 02:28 PM   #95
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Marquez and Miller celebrate -
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October 22nd, 2017, 02:32 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
So, will Yamaha try to convince Rossi to retire so they can keep Zarco or is the sponsorship he brings invaluable to the team. Right now, i would think Honda and Suzuki will be drawing up plans to offer Zarco a contract around summer break next year for 19-20. Yamaha have already lost Lorenzo and i wouldnt be surprised if Vinales will at least entertains offers from Suzuki or KTM after having his championship derailed by his teammates actions. Rumor has it that the Red Bull furor is offering Marquez a blank check but now is not the time for Marquez to jump ship. He seems happy with Honda, they will pay upwards of 20 million to keep him and the bike is coming good. I see the next few years looking more like 10-11 win title years than the title years we have seen in 16-17?. If the KTM stays on its impressive learning curve and looks like it could be a front runner with a rider,Vinales just might take a big check. Of course, Zarco could fall flat on his face on the 17 M1 next year and this would be a moot point.lol
Rossi said at the post race presser when questioned about Yamaha running 3 current bikes like Ducati and Honda that he doesn't want Zarco to have one. That could be Zarco out the door for Yamaha as soon as a better offer comes along. It will be interesting to see where Zarco ends up, Suzuki is a good option, KTM is a better one if he can get there but I think that KTM might favour bringing up Oliveira if he has another good season next year. Honda could be looking for a new number 2 rider but might not want to have Zarco and Marquez fighting tooth and nail every round.

Marquez isn't jumping at the red bull money just yet. As you said the bikes finally coming good and Honda to their credit have bent over backwards to improve the bike for him. He doesn't need the money and I think he's more focussed on getting #10 rather than money right now. If he reaches number 10 then the prestige that would come with getting KTM their first might push him over the line to get there. Marquez is a smart guy though and he will probably want to see that KTM is invested long term in this project and won't call it quits once/if they win a championship.

Pedrosa is saying it might be time for a change. Obviously he is struggling with consistency with Michelin but for Suzuki, KTM and Yamaha(should Rossi retire) he might be a very attractive option for two years. He's still got a more proven record than all but 3 riders in the GP. Which would leave Honda looking for a new #2 rider.

I think what's for sure is the first half of next season is going to be crucial for all riders with how many seats will be up for grabs.

Side note regarding the Duc, Crutchlow told Miller he should take the ride with Ducati because the bike will be easier to ride and he will probably get better results.
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October 22nd, 2017, 02:52 PM   #97
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This last 1 1/2 seasons we have witnessed something really special from Dovi. He has single handedly taken a bike that is in no position to challenge the might of Honda and Yamaha and he has come oh so close to stealing a championship. This has been a hurculean effort it would have been a legendary tale, and yet I'm glad I was privelliged just to see him get this close.

Of course Marquez is an amazing rider. But really, would anyone in their right mind choose to ride a Ducati rather than a Honda or Yamaha? No way, sure they have their issues but the same 2 have dominated every championship since 2007. Ducati will never change that, hopefully KTM might but they are yet to know what it's like to get screwed by Carmelo.

Put Marquez on this current Ducati and my bet he does no better than Dovi, all credit to the man. This race I believe Michelin had tires that simply didn't fit the Ducati operating window. By coincidence, it did fit the Yamaha perfectly, and I have to say Rossi looked very strong and confident on the bike he rode a great race.

But back to Dovi his fellow Duc team mates are looking over his data and are scratching their heads trying to figure out how the hell is this guy actually contending for the title, how does he ride like that? It's up there in Stoner territory. Remember Dovi and Lorenzo have been rivals all the way back to 125s and Lorenzo has generally had the upper hand but not anymore, he will never be able to replicate what Dovi has done.

Now think back to when Dovi was on the Tech 3 and pushing for a factory Yamaha. How would that have turned out? W/C imo
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October 22nd, 2017, 03:11 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post

Of course Marquez is an amazing rider. But really, would anyone in their right mind choose to ride a Ducati rather than a Honda or Yamaha? No way, sure they have their issues but the same 2 have dominated every championship since 2007. Ducati will never change that, hopefully KTM might but they are yet to know what it's like to get screwed by Carmelo.

Put Marquez on this current Ducati and my bet he does no better than Dovi, all credit to the man. This race I believe Michelin had tires that simply didn't fit the Ducati operating window. By coincidence, it did fit the Yamaha perfectly, and I have to say Rossi looked very strong and confident on the bike he rode a great race.
No one should go to Ducati for a simple reason: Ducati is too stupid to change their engine configuration so they can be competitive. I don't want to hear about how they are hamstrung. KTM wasn't even dumb enough to continue with a screamer engine and quickly switched to a big bang engine when they realized the screamer was not going to work based on the current rules. We can wave our hands and whine about how unfair it is that HRC/Yamaha dictate the rules, but really if it were that unfair, why did all these manufacturers come running back as soon as costs were driven down? Maybe none of them actually give a shit, and it's only a select few fans who think it's "unfair".

When KTM leapfrogs Ducati, and believe me, they will, people better start asking why Italy continues living in the past like everything else they do. It's like after the Renaissance they decided, "Fuck it, we did the Sistine Chapel ceiling, we did the Mona Lisa, we did sculptures, we did it all, we're done, we'll just live on our cred for being artisans forever and people will eat that shit up."

Marquez would outdo Dovizioso on the Ducati quite easily birdman. That is hilarious you think he would do no better. It's a shame we'll never know for certain, but Marquez likes to ride fast and loose which is perfect for that bike. Same reason Stoner excelled on the bike. You need to be a dirt track rider to ride that bike to glory and well who've they had on there that really met that qualifications since Stoner? No one.
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October 22nd, 2017, 03:42 PM   #99
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Just to throw this out there, but I wonder if the hammerhead fairing may have played a part in the Ducati's PI issues?
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October 22nd, 2017, 04:57 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Don't think it was a dud.

My opinion is the Ducati was destined to struggle around Phillip Island because the circuit pretty much forces the bikes to be leaned over continually from the Doohan Corner all the way through turn 12. The Gardner Straight is the only real time the bike stays on the tire center for any sustained time to let the heat dissipate from the tire. The rest of the circuit is constantly loading the tire, something that does not play well to the Ducati at all because they haven't figured out how to design a chassis that works well with their engine configuration. Though I suspect had Stoner ridden the GP17, he would have done as well as he ever did at Phillip Island since it would have probably been extremely loose, something that does not play to any of their rider's strengths. Hence where the winglets come in most everywhere else, they provide much needed stability to cover up the chassis deficiencies that I mentioned in the MM GOAT topic.

No one really wants to admit Dovizioso is only where he is because of the winglets. He'll be fine at Malaysia next weekend because there is plenty of time to cool down the outside of the tire carcass unlike at Phillip Island. It's why they do great at drag strip circuits like the Red Bull Ring and not so good now at PI where it's all about cornering speeds. Engineering sacrifices were made in favor of the winglets, and well, also with the hopes Yamaha and Honda would cannibalize each other enough. Gigi practically was praying for MM to crash out of races, and he may still get his wish at Sepang. But the nice thing is MM doesn't need to win the grand prix there. He can ride to P2 or even less depending on where Dovizioso goes. Though the stronger the Yamaha's are, the better that is for MM since he can just ride to position rather than take excessive risks.

Whether Jum is trolling or not with his 'Dovi is better than MM' comments as of late, it's hilarious to read since everyone knows MM was given for 2 years running the worst of the three major factory bikes. I still remember that wheel spin coming out of the final corner at Losail in 2015 and 2016 that people have forgotten about. HRC didn't get the RC213V sorted out till this summer. You do what you have to do to win. Ducati wants to continue with their 90 V4 with Desmodromic valves, and that is fine. But to win at this level consistently, it's not the right package. You guys are too caught up in the artisanal Ducati bullshit. That line of thinking was what led the Scuderia Ferrari teams of yore to hold onto their V12's well into the 1990s when the engines were liabilities due to weight and fuel consumption penalties.

Dovizioso is not an alien. He's a nice likable guy who people want to see win a title. He could still win in spite of the points deficit, but if he wins it's not going to be because he was somehow more talented than MM. I've already said MM is of another level of talent altogether. He pretty much fucked with the entire field today with his pace. Dovizioso doesn't have the requisite ability to do anything like that unless it is in the rain. It's the sort of thing Vale used to do once upon a time when we were all much younger and the competition wasn't what it was now. Phillip Island is great for giving an idea of what talent is, and yes you still need a halfway decent machine underneath you. I think it showed us more than anything what the reality of the Ducati is and regardless of what the title outcome is, they need to seriously consider their engine configuration for the future IMO if they want to be a serious threat to the Japanese hegemony in this series.
Short answer: disagree.



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