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September 26th, 2017, 10:04 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
You never seen Tom Brady?

Good post Dub and entertaining discussion, though it's got no definitive answer. I don't like the term goat for many reasons, first, it's impossible to define, in MotoGP if we're talking numbers only, I'd say Agostini certainly has a legitimate claim to the throne. But if you start factoring in other intangibles like sheer talent, skill, popularity, economic impact, longevity, etc., then what gets more weight? For example, few people will put Casey Stoner on the goat list, that's because most will weigh popularity, longevity, number of titles, disproportionately to outright skill, talent, speed, and doing it on an inferior machine. Would you say Rossi had more motorcycle skill than Casey at their respective peaks? Not me. Then there is Marquez, doing astonishing things on a 'RCV'. How much do we weigh he's doing this on a machine/team/manufacturer that is the most resourced, engineered, and supported? How much do we weigh Rossi accomplished his first 5 titles on special tires? If we put all the goat candidates on the worst bike of the grid, say the Ducati 07-10, who wins? If we put all the goat candidates on the best machine, say the RCV 2013-14, who wins. Hypothetical.

Then there is the question of Wayne Rainey, who likely would have continued his run of consecutive titles until Dog knows when. King Kenny, the only motorcycling 'Grand Slam Club' member to win a MotoGP title, in his rookie year, that is, how much single season perfomance is weighted into goat consideration? It's clear popularity is by far the most weighted factor, it's about perception of who was the goat, in this case the modern cult mentality choice will be Rossi; otherwise Agostini on numbers alone is the goat.

Regarding other sports, a few names come to mind. But let me say, I don't personally consider Michael Jordan the goat, especially considering the team he was surrounded with, but as I said, because of modern marketing the perceptions become skewed. What about LeBron James then? I think individually, Tiger Woods is the goat of golf. Most people will say Ali is the goat of boxing, I personally don't, Mike Tyson for me. But ask 100 people on the street, 100 will say Ali. Even people who have never been fans of boxing, so perceptions win out.

Other names that come to mind, Pele and Maradona. Both considered the goats. Interestingly, today many say Messi is the goat, yet has never won a national title like Maradona. Ronaldo is considered a co-goat with Messi, who recently won the European championship with the national team. So what factors get more weight?

F1, Michael Schumacher. Olympics? Growing up I always thought Bruce Jenner was something of a goat, when I was in elementary school, I read about Jim Thorpe, I'm convinced to this day he was the Olympic goat, but most people today would say it Michael Phelps.

Baseball, most will say goat Babe Ruth. Not me, but like Michael Jordan, Ali, Rossi, the modern perception, especially immortalized in media, wins out. Who can argue against The Sandlot's mythical hero, Thee Babe, the Great Bambino, the Sultan of Swat, the Colossus of Clout, the King of Crash...get the 'picture'? Being a baseball fan, i know its more popular to honor hitters over pitchers, but the goats for me were names like Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, but the public insist it must be a hitter to be a goat, my names are Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. But Hollywood wins the battle of hyped popularity, thanks to Neale's glorification biographies masqueraded as MotoGP movies, Rossi's name will be the mythical hero, and his legend will certainly out grow his real accomplishments.

NFL, Tom Brady. What about Bo Jackson then? Joe Montana? Jerry Rice, Sanders?

Hocky, Wayne Gretzky.
NBA, Wilt Chamberlain?
Supercross, The King of SX Jeremy McGrath? Or the supposed "goat" Ricky Carmichael?

I agree with your general assessment, VR will forever be the "goat" of GP on perception alone, the fact is popularity is by far the most weighted factor.

Edit to add: Mike Hailwood. From reading about his career and what he accomplished, he's definitely honorable mention, but like I said, popularity wins perception.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
You rate Tyson above Ali? Wow just wow. Tyson ruled over a weak era, got beaten by every prime great fighter he fought while Ali hold wins over like 2-3 of the greatest HWs ever and 6 or 7 top 20 and just plenty of really solid fighters that likely would've been champs during Tysons era. Tyson is without doubt the most overrated fighters ever. He was a great and exciting fighter no doubt but he isn't even in his own opinion comparable to Ali. They really aren't comparable Jum, this isn't me buying into Ali hype either. I am a life long boxing fan and have fought professionally. Realistically Tyson is barely a top 10 all time HW given his lack of competition and really short reign.

Holyfield and Lewis are both rightfully ranked over him and those are just two he fought. Then you have Louis who is clear number 2, Johnson, Foreman, Holmes, Klitschko, Frazier off the top of my head.
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September 26th, 2017, 10:24 AM   #32
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Most boxing historians say the GOAT of boxing was not Ali, but Sugar Ray Robinson. I urge people who have any interest in boxing to watch videos of Ray Robinson, he was the perfect package.

As far as F1 goes, Schumacher was never the GOAT, and before his injury he always said Senna was better than he was. He raced against Senna so he would have known firsthand.

My opinion always was that Jimmy Clark was the true GOAT. Jimmy was simply sublime to watch. He could drive anything, and he had a mechanical sympathy second to none. Scottish farmer's boy who was humble, soft spoken, but a wonderful man that we lost far too early. He could drive around every problem a car presented. He won the Indy 500 as well. What in my opinion solidifies Clark as the greatest ever was that he never drove the Lotus 49 with it's new Cosworth DFV till it was unveiled at the 1967 Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort in June that year. Graham Hill did all of the testing and shakedown work. He gets in the car never having driven it till that weekend. During the race he spent the first number of laps coming to grips with the handling, power delivery, and other intricacies. Hill suffered a failure with his 49 and found himself out of the grand prix. Jimmy then did what he did best: he dropped the hammer on the field and disappeared finishing over 20 seconds ahead of P2. Unfortunately the car was notoriously fickle as were most of Colin's creations, so what should have been an easy 1967 world title for Jimmy instead went to Denny Hulme, and Jack Brabham finished second in the championship. 1968 would have been Jimmy's year if not for Hockenheim...but such is life.
You could argue that Ali is GOAT based on being a HW and not needing weight divisions. Otherwise SRR is the man, he could box, he could brawl, he had a chin made of iron to match his will. He beat top fighters at 135-160, is easily the best WW of all time and arguably the best MW of all time but at worst a top 5. I recently watched his last fight against Lamotta and even though by all reports he was exiting his prime once he moved up to 160 he hits Lamotta with frightening speed and power. Sadly with Robinson we never got to see just how good he was in his prime as the majority of his fights weren't recorded. Robinson won his first 40 fights before losing to the larger Lamotta but then would go on to win his next 88 fights reaching 128-1 before losing again.


Other guys who you can make strong cases for are Henry Armstrong, though he believes that even at his best he wouldn't have beaten Robinson. However Armstrong held 3(126,135,147)of the world titles at once when there were only 8 divisions and shortly after challenged for the 160lb title that ended in a draw though most felt he did enough to win.

You have someone like Sam Langford who is without a shadow of a doubt the greatest fighter never to win a world championship thanks to the colour line being drawn. Langford was a freak and knocked out top fighters from lightweight(135lbs) all the way up to heavyweight. Jack Dempsey wanted no part in an aging Langford who story actually ends quite sad as he died poor and blind but had to continue fighting even whilst losing his vision. Despite fighting half blind he was still considered one of the best HWs in the world standing at only 5'8 and generally weighing under the Lightheavyweight limit. I think his story could actually make a great movie.

Greb is arguably the best ever but I have to admit other than reputation and the fact is the only man to have beaten Gene Tunney, the man who dethroned Dempsey despite Greb being a middleweight.

Pepp is a good call as well, his losses to Sadler are held against him far too much. People either don't realise or take into account that Pepp Saddler the fact he was in a plane crash that resulted in doctors telling him he would never walk again. Pepp had a record of 230-11 with 10 of those loses coming after his crash. Really an unbelievable effort considering he had most of his success after being seriously injured, you have to wonder that if not for the crash just what else the guy could've achieved.
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Last edited by p4p1; September 26th, 2017 at 10:37 AM.
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September 26th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
Hockey, Wayne Gretzky.
A common error.

It was, in fact, Mario Lemieux.

Also, until I re-read I thought you'd said Madonna was the GOAT. Well, maybe she's a goat, at least.
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September 26th, 2017, 10:43 AM   #34
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Hockey is not Wayne Gretzky its Gordy Howe.
Oh, you might be right on that one.
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September 26th, 2017, 11:09 AM   #35
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Most people will say Ali is the goat of boxing, I personally don't, Mike Tyson for me.
Biting off someone's earlobe does not qualify a boxer as the greatest of all time in much the same way that kicking someone off a motorcycle does not confer GOAT status either.
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September 26th, 2017, 11:12 AM   #36
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Biting off someone's earlobe does not qualify a boxer as the greatest of all time in much the same way that kicking someone off a motorcycle does not confer GOAT status either.
Thing is the earlobe incident was proven.


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September 26th, 2017, 11:13 AM   #37
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The females are missing from this. Most people are considering Simon Biles the greatet gymnast of all time. Serena Williams could be considered the great tennis player of all time.
Serena Williams would need to beat Rodger Federer, man to man.

Biles, different era.

Here's one we can all agree with, Travis Pastrana.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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September 26th, 2017, 11:21 AM   #38
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Biting off someone's earlobe does not qualify a boxer as the greatest of all time in much the same way that kicking someone off a motorcycle does not confer GOAT status either.
Because I argued biting a ear was the standard to confer GOAT status.

Everyone knows GOATS eat anything!

Checkmate.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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September 26th, 2017, 11:24 AM   #39
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Because I argued biting a ear was the standard to confer GOAT status.

Everyone knows GOATS eat anything!

Checkmate.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Pele? Maradona? - defer to Luis Suárez.

Stalemate.
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September 26th, 2017, 01:50 PM   #40
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I find it funny to see how winning a world cup once counts more than winning countless leagues, champions leagues and scoring/assists records year after year. Not saying Jumkie thinks like that but it's a very prevalent thinking for fans today. Basically getting lucky one summer determines who's the GOAT in football. Would we speaking about Maradona being GOAT if he didn't scored a wrongly allowed goal against England? Would we dismissing Messi's accomplishments if Higuain wasn't the biggest choker in world football?

Also there's an argument to be made that international NT tournaments aren't as relevant as before. Back then it was where top level football was played but the Bosman Ruling has definitely inclined the balance to club football. It's clear now that if you want to see the biggest accumulation of talent and the most brilliant tactical displays, you have to watch something like the Champions League and not the WC.

I should add too that Messi has been brilliant for 10 years straight, while Maradona only fulfilled his potential in the years he was with Napoli (he was there for 6-7 years but was already too deep in coke addiction in the later years). His time at Barça was marred by injuries.

Pelé is a fraud in my opinion, a fantastic player (but not GOAT) who upped his reputation in any way he could. Played in the most stacked Brazil ever (in fact, they won the world cup without him when he got injured), not to mention never playing in Europe, or how he counted goals scored in the backyard of his house to embellish his tally. Frankly the Valentino Rossi of its era :^)

I'm a Real Madrid fan and there's nothing I hate more than Barça winning, but even I have to recognize that Messi is something else. A good what-if scenario would have been if Brazilian Ronaldo (the fat one) hadn't suffered those nasty injuries... what a player he was

Last edited by MichaelBolton; September 26th, 2017 at 01:56 PM.
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