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September 26th, 2017, 05:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
Jordan was James equal in scoring, his superior on defense and much better in the clutch. Jordan's will to win also trumps James. Jordan played in an era where you got bludgeoned in the paint, now you can go venture into the lane with the knowledge that the slightest bump will be called. As talented as James is, I think he is a tad weak mentally and a bit of a whiner
We agree about basketball as well as bike racing then.
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September 26th, 2017, 05:41 AM   #22
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Fkn GOAT.
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September 26th, 2017, 06:11 AM   #23
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With his fourth championship this year seeming very likely I've been wondering what else does Marquez need to achieve to be in your opinion the GOAT.

I'm just interested to see what those far more knowledgable than me think.
Well, according to this thread he just has to take too-many-steps (travel) to be the greatest of all time. That's what Jordan did ALL THE F'ing TIME in the NBA. He also fouled a ton of players and never got called for it. Since I was an NBA season ticket holder during his era, my opinion may differ than the horde. I will take Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on my best team ever, BEFORE Michael Jordon.

Marquez is going to have a harder time than Rossi and Doohan, because of the rules changes and the competition. Without as many special factory advantages, it is harder to dominate. The last decade also proves that the riders got tougher. Rossi just couldn't win all the time against Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, et al. And the Moto2 guys are even better, imo. So things will only get more difficult in the future.

Having said all that, Marquez and Stoner are my favorite to watch in recent times. Doohan is always at the top of my GOAT list, and virtually all the American Champions were more fun to watch than anyone else out there. So, I am a good neutralist and will say ...... who ever the f' you want can be the GOAT ...... except Rossi. .......... JUST KIDDING.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:04 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Iamapony View Post
Well, according to this thread he just has to take too-many-steps (travel) to be the greatest of all time. That's what Jordan did ALL THE F'ing TIME in the NBA. He also fouled a ton of players and never got called for it. Since I was an NBA season ticket holder during his era, my opinion may differ than the horde. I will take Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on my best team ever, BEFORE Michael Jordon.

Marquez is going to have a harder time than Rossi and Doohan, because of the rules changes and the competition. Without as many special factory advantages, it is harder to dominate. The last decade also proves that the riders got tougher. Rossi just couldn't win all the time against Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, et al. And the Moto2 guys are even better, imo. So things will only get more difficult in the future.

Having said all that, Marquez and Stoner are my favorite to watch in recent times. Doohan is always at the top of my GOAT list, and virtually all the American Champions were more fun to watch than anyone else out there. So, I am a good neutralist and will say ...... who ever the f' you want can be the GOAT ...... except Rossi. .......... JUST KIDDING.
Larry Bird, Magic, Kareem are great players but not goats. Everyone of them would pick jordan first on their team. None of them are shooting guards anyway. But I get it.

Another example of a goat is currently going on in football. Tom Brady whether you like him or the Pats or not is the greatest quarter back of all time. Tom Brady has statistically made it impossible to even debate the subject. When someone is a goat, you will know it. Its not about liking or disliking an athlete, its about pure dominance.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:06 AM   #25
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The term GOAT is bigger then achievements. Its thrown around to much. It about the total take over of a sport. From an economical stand point the sport will not be as good without you. In my lifetime I have only witnessed 2 goats in any sport. Micheal Jordan and Valentino Rossi. Love him or hate him his domination of the spot has lasted longer than his talent. Motogp will long rely on him for a long time yet. Greatest of all time should not be a term thrown around for the fuck of it.


You never seen Tom Brady?

Good post Dub and entertaining discussion, though it's got no definitive answer. I don't like the term goat for many reasons, first, it's impossible to define, in MotoGP if we're talking numbers only, I'd say Agostini certainly has a legitimate claim to the throne. But if you start factoring in other intangibles like sheer talent, skill, popularity, economic impact, longevity, etc., then what gets more weight? For example, few people will put Casey Stoner on the goat list, that's because most will weigh popularity, longevity, number of titles, disproportionately to outright skill, talent, speed, and doing it on an inferior machine. Would you say Rossi had more motorcycle skill than Casey at their respective peaks? Not me. Then there is Marquez, doing astonishing things on a 'RCV'. How much do we weigh he's doing this on a machine/team/manufacturer that is the most resourced, engineered, and supported? How much do we weigh Rossi accomplished his first 5 titles on special tires? If we put all the goat candidates on the worst bike of the grid, say the Ducati 07-10, who wins? If we put all the goat candidates on the best machine, say the RCV 2013-14, who wins. Hypothetical.

Then there is the question of Wayne Rainey, who likely would have continued his run of consecutive titles until Dog knows when. King Kenny, the only motorcycling 'Grand Slam Club' member to win a MotoGP title, in his rookie year, that is, how much single season perfomance is weighted into goat consideration? It's clear popularity is by far the most weighted factor, it's about perception of who was the goat, in this case the modern cult mentality choice will be Rossi; otherwise Agostini on numbers alone is the goat.

Regarding other sports, a few names come to mind. But let me say, I don't personally consider Michael Jordan the goat, especially considering the team he was surrounded with, but as I said, because of modern marketing the perceptions become skewed. What about LeBron James then? I think individually, Tiger Woods is the goat of golf. Most people will say Ali is the goat of boxing, I personally don't, Mike Tyson for me. But ask 100 people on the street, 100 will say Ali. Even people who have never been fans of boxing, so perceptions win out.

Other names that come to mind, Pele and Maradona. Both considered the goats. Interestingly, today many say Messi is the goat, yet has never won a national title like Maradona. Ronaldo is considered a co-goat with Messi, who recently won the European championship with the national team. So what factors get more weight?

F1, Michael Schumacher. Olympics? Growing up I always thought Bruce Jenner was something of a goat, when I was in elementary school, I read about Jim Thorpe, I'm convinced to this day he was the Olympic goat, but most people today would say it Michael Phelps.

Baseball, most will say goat Babe Ruth. Not me, but like Michael Jordan, Ali, Rossi, the modern perception, especially immortalized in media, wins out. Who can argue against The Sandlot's mythical hero, Thee Babe, the Great Bambino, the Sultan of Swat, the Colossus of Clout, the King of Crash...get the 'picture'? Being a baseball fan, i know its more popular to honor hitters over pitchers, but the goats for me were names like Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, but the public insist it must be a hitter to be a goat, my names are Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. But Hollywood wins the battle of hyped popularity, thanks to Neale's glorification biographies masqueraded as MotoGP movies, Rossi's name will be the mythical hero, and his legend will certainly out grow his real accomplishments.

NFL, Tom Brady. What about Bo Jackson then? Joe Montana? Jerry Rice, Sanders?

Hocky, Wayne Gretzky.
NBA, Wilt Chamberlain?
Supercross, The King of SX Jeremy McGrath? Or the supposed "goat" Ricky Carmichael?

I agree with your general assessment, VR will forever be the "goat" of GP on perception alone, the fact is popularity is by far the most weighted factor.

Edit to add: Mike Hailwood. From reading about his career and what he accomplished, he's definitely honorable mention, but like I said, popularity wins perception.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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Last edited by Jumkie; September 26th, 2017 at 09:29 AM.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:27 AM   #26
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You never seen Tom Brady?

Good post Dub and entertaining discussion, though it's got no definitive answer. I don't like the term goat for many reasons, first, it's impossible to define, in MotoGP if we're talking numbers only, I'd say Agostini certainly has a legitimate claim to the throne. But if you start factoring in other intangibles like sheer talent, skill, popularity, economic impact, longevity, etc., then what gets more weight? For example, few people will put Casey Stoner on the goat list, that's because most will weigh popularity, longevity, number of titles, disproportionately to outright skill, talent, speed, and doing it on an inferior machine. Would you say Rossi had more motorcycle skill than Casey at their respective peaks? Not me. Then there is Marquez, doing astonishing things on a 'RCV'. How much do we weigh he's doing this on a machine/team/manufacturer that is the most resourced, engineered, and supported? How much do we weigh Rossi accomplished his first 5 titles on special tires? If we put all the goat candidates on the worst bike of the grid, say the Ducati 07-10, who wins? If we put all the goat candidates on the best machine, say the RCV 2013-14, who wins. Hypothetical.
Then there is the question of Wayne Rainey, who likely would have continued his run of consecutive titles until Dog knows when. It seems to me popularity is by far the most weighted factor, it's about perception of who was the goat, in this case the modern cult mentality choice will be Rossi; otherwise Agostini on numbers alone is the goat.

Regarding other sports, a few names come to mind. But let me say, I don't personally consider Michael Jordan the goat, especially considering the team he was surrounded with, but as I said, because of modern marketing the perceptions become skewed. What about LeBron James then? I think individually, Tiger Woods is the goat of golf. Most people will say Ali is the goat of boxing, I personally don't, Mike Tyson for me. But ask 100 people on the street, 100 will say Ali. Even people who have never been fans of boxing, so perceptions win out.

Other names that come to mind, Pele and Maradona. Both considered the goats. Interestingly, today many say Messi is the goat, yet has never won a national title like Maradona. Ronaldo is considered a co-goat with Messi, who recently won the European championship with the national team. So what factors get more weight?

F1, Michael Schumacher. Olympics? Growing up I always thought Bruce Jenner was something of a goat, when I was in elementary school, I read about Jim Thorpe, I'm convinced to this day he was the Olympic goat, but most people today would say it Michael Phelps.

Baseball, most will say goat Babe Ruth. Not me, but like Michael Jordan, Ali, Rossi, the modern perception, especially immortalized in media, wins out. Who can argue against The Sandlot's mythical hero, Thee Babe, the Great Bambino, the Sultan of Swat, the Colossus of Clout, the King of Crash...get the 'picture'? Being a baseball fan, i know its more popular to honor hitters over pitchers, but the goats for me were names like Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, but the public insist it must be a hitter to be a goat, my names are Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. But Hollywood wins the battle of hyped popularity, thanks to Neale's glorification biographies masqueraded as MotoGP movies, Rossi's name will be the mythical hero, and his legend will certainly out grow his real accomplishments.

NFL, Tom Brady. What about Bo Jackson then? Joe Montana? Jerry Rice, Sanders?

Hocky, Wayne Gretzky.
NBA, Wilt Chamberlain?
Supercross, The King of SX Jeremy McGrath? Or the supposed "goat" Ricky Carmichael?

I agree with your general assessment, VR will forever be the "goat" of GP on perception alone, the fact is popularity is by far the most weighted factor.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Haha just mentioned Tom. To me a sport doesn't have to have a goat. Greatest of all time should be clear better athlete then the rest. Pure domination, striking nerves in his competitors.

Love this post let me just add my to cents on some of the people and sport you mentioned.
Motogp for me it Rossi but I would love to hear enough about an old legend to make me feel he was greater, not faster or better but greater. My biggest problem with Casey isn't his greatness, it is his lows. They were as low as his highs were high. To me a goat is unflappable.

F1 I'd say Schumacher but I don't know a ton about the history of F1. F1 definitely has so legends.

Olympics is tough to categorizes as one. Swimming Phelps for sure but if I had to pick an Olympic GOAT I'd say hand down Jesse Owens. His story alone is worthy.

Baseball damn, I don't even have a short list.

Bo Jackson is my favorite athlete of all time you know this but unfortunately injury will keep that from ever being true. That makes me think of Jim Brown who had a short career because he chose to retire early but he is still considered one of the greatest running backs. But the goat is Barry Sanders.

Hockey is not Wayne Gretzky its Gordy Howe. Wings bro!

SX is Carmichael to me also. Although I would rather watch JMc's smooth style. He was the shortest ever time served as goat.

Tiger Woods

Last edited by MdubSTYLIE; September 26th, 2017 at 09:30 AM.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:29 AM   #27
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Most boxing historians say the GOAT of boxing was not Ali, but Sugar Ray Robinson. I urge people who have any interest in boxing to watch videos of Ray Robinson, he was the perfect package.

As far as F1 goes, Schumacher was never the GOAT, and before his injury he always said Senna was better than he was. He raced against Senna so he would have known firsthand.

My opinion always was that Jimmy Clark was the true GOAT. Jimmy was simply sublime to watch. He could drive anything, and he had a mechanical sympathy second to none. Scottish farmer's boy who was humble, soft spoken, but a wonderful man that we lost far too early. He could drive around every problem a car presented. He won the Indy 500 as well. What in my opinion solidifies Clark as the greatest ever was that he never drove the Lotus 49 with it's new Cosworth DFV till it was unveiled at the 1967 Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort in June that year. Graham Hill did all of the testing and shakedown work. He gets in the car never having driven it till that weekend. During the race he spent the first number of laps coming to grips with the handling, power delivery, and other intricacies. Hill suffered a failure with his 49 and found himself out of the grand prix. Jimmy then did what he did best: he dropped the hammer on the field and disappeared finishing over 20 seconds ahead of P2. Unfortunately the car was notoriously fickle as were most of Colin's creations, so what should have been an easy 1967 world title for Jimmy instead went to Denny Hulme, and Jack Brabham finished second in the championship. 1968 would have been Jimmy's year if not for Hockenheim...but such is life.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:34 AM   #28
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My opinion always was that Jimmy Clark was the true GOAT. Jimmy was simply sublime to watch. He could drive anything, and he had a mechanical sympathy second to none. Scottish farmer's boy who was humble, soft spoken, but a wonderful man that we lost far too early. He could drive around every problem a car presented. He won the Indy 500 as well. What in my opinion solidifies Clark as the greatest ever was that he never drove the Lotus 49 with it's new Cosworth DFV till it was unveiled at the 1967 Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort in June that year. Graham Hill did all of the testing and shakedown work. He gets in the car never having driven it till that weekend. During the race he spent the first number of laps coming to grips with the handling, power delivery, and other intricacies. Hill suffered a failure with his 49 and found himself out of the grand prix. Jimmy then did what he did best: he dropped the hammer on the field and disappeared finishing over 20 seconds ahead of P2. Unfortunately the car was notoriously fickle as were most of Colin's creations, so what should have been an easy 1967 world title for Jimmy instead went to Denny Hulme, and Jack Brabham finished second in the championship. 1968 would have been Jimmy's year if not for Hockenheim...but such is life.
Excellent appraisal - and I entirely agree. The four wheeled Hailwood.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:35 AM   #29
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The females are missing from this. Most people are considering Simon Biles the greatet gymnast of all time. Serena Williams could be considered the great tennis player of all time.
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September 26th, 2017, 09:40 AM   #30
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Jonny Holmes greatest plumber of all time. No one has ever laid more pipe.
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