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September 12th, 2017, 08:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Great to see a post from you, I have really missed your posts, and sorry to hear of your health issues.

I agree about MM, I don't go as far as you do on Petrucci, but did remember the events you mentioned when thinking towards the end if the race it wouldn't be a bad thing to see him win a race. Good ride from him regardless, particularly given I have been taking the Valeban to task for holding grudges against riders.
Thanks Mike. Petrucci is one of the best wet weather riders currently on the grid...actually he may be the best as I feel he is consistently better than anyone else in the wet at this point. That being said, I can't let Valencia '15 go because it was simply too egregious an act of letting Rossi by in the manner he did.

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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Amigo - Respectfully disagree about the lack of special-ness should Dovi take a podium. Agree he hasn't raised the bar for entering the alien club the way Marques has. But his work ethic at Ducati and his involvement with developing a bike that nobody has been competitive with alone, would make him a very worthy champion. Then there's the matter of his indomitable spirit. How many riders have suffered through as many depressing years of 2nd rate equipment lip-service support, only to plug humbly away and achieve the kind of results we've witnessed in 2017? Not to mention the way Dovi has been ignored by both Dorna and the fans.

Considering he's now bested Marquez (the best in decades) multiple times - can't be a coincidence. To discount his wins as being due to tires - is too reminiscent of the "The Ducati rode itself) gambit played by the boppers.

IMHO the standard for being a champion, is winning. You don't take the top of the podium this many times in a season by not taking races. There are no trophies for being a nice guy. Conversely - there are no trophies for being the flashiest rider.

After so many relatively lackluster seasons, I understand the impulse to treat Dovi's achievements this year as some kind of fluke. IMHO - it's the result of hard work, and a refusal to sit on the pity pot, a refusal to sink into the morass of resentment and blaming others for lesser results.
I don't think what he is doing is a fluke, but rather it's a result of the tires being designed to be performance leveling. I don't think the Ducati rides itself by any means as we see what Lorenzo's struggles have been the entire year. Ducati did something smart in designing their machine to be easier on tires as tire management is basically half of any given grand prix this season. Manage the tires for half the race, drop the hammer for the second half if possible. I do think the combination of spec electronics plus performance leveling tires plus chassis are the key to the Ducati 'resurgence' more than anything. The Honda is the worst of the three major factory bikes. Suzuki, Aprilia, and KTM are second tier. Dovi is the right rider for the Ducati because of how he rides, but if these tires, in particular the front tire was made to a spec that wasn't of the current dubious nature, and the riders who want to ride the shit out of the front could, what we are watching would take on a rather different air altogether. If he wins the title good on him as he will have done exactly what he needed to do in order to win. We also shouldn't discount Vinales yet either as he is still within striking distance, and only needs a win plus a couple of good finishes to be right back in the thick of things.

Would also say multiple riders are always going to best MM over the course of a season. The abnormality of 2014 withstanding, he isn't going to win that many grands prix in a single season, so "failure" (not winning) is going to always feature more predominantly than "success" (winning). But as mentioned it's about how it all gets put together over the course of 18 races so that the total points is greater than everyone else. It's looking like this may be another season where the world title winner whether it's Marc, Dovi, or Mav bag less than 300 points to take a title. I believe that's really been Dorna's ultimate goal, keep the title battle close as possible for as long as possible.
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September 12th, 2017, 02:56 PM   #102
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I had a few people bugging me to make a post, so Iíve decided to acquiesce for a moment and indulge. I pretty much stopped posting due to a chronic health condition that Iíve mostly ignored for awhile, but is life-threatening if left untreated. Some things in life tend to put a lot of things in perspective, and as much as I love grand prix motorcycle racing, itís not the most important thing to be focused on at times. That being said, Misano is as good of a race as any to drop in and leave some of my thoughts, for better or worse.

Mike Hailwood, Eddie Lawson, Wayne Rainey, and Kevin Schwantz.

Marc Marquez is simply an amalgam of the best qualities of those four men. He wins on everything; bike classes, tires, electronics, engines (inlines, V4ís, big bangs, screamers). He redefines the laws of physics by taking unwieldy and nearly unrideable [to world title] machines and rides them to titles. He uses his intelligence to put together a cohesive title campaign that does not look at races as separate entities, but views them as interwoven pieces that when fully assembled can result in a world championship being lifted at the end of the season. A lesson no doubt learned in the steep failure of the 2015 campaign. Along the way, he does it by simply being spectacular in every facet of riding. You cannot take your eyes off of him because you know every corner, ever lap, there is always the possibility he is going to do something so outrageous that youíre going to sit there dumbstruck, thinking, ďDid he really just do that?Ē The near overtake he made on Dovizioso at the Red Bull Ring was as audacious as any of the brilliant overtakes we saw over the years out of Kevin Schwantz. There was a saying I heard once from a racer many years ago that always stuck with me where he told me, ďDonít fear risks, ride them.Ē

Dovizioso may very well win the championship this year, and if he does, kudos to him. But itís not going to be because he did anything truly special. Itís going to be because he played defense the entire season. People here are taken with the romanticism involved with Ducati and the idea of Dovizioso becoming world champion because he is a nice and genuinely likeable guy. But really, if that is the standard for why someone deserves to be world champion, itís time to take up another hobby/personal interest. Doviziosoís title challenge is not a product of him suddenly learning how to challenge, itís a product of nothing more than the performance-leveling tires. His first two wins of the season were notable for the races being about not being able to ride 10/10ths and to engage in tire management for the entire race. Remember the Brno when Marc didnít have to worry about overheating the tires after he switched bikes? That is what he would do at every race if the tires werenít designed with performance-leveling in mind. The Red Bull Ring win that everyone was probably gaga over, time for me to put a pin in that bubble. 2016, the circuit was a Ducati dragstrip that watched the Desmosedici out-horsepower every other bike on the grid. They were expected to do more of the same in 2017. Instead we watched Marc cut a massive Ducati advantage into mere tenths of a second. Everyone can oooooh and ahhhh over that defense at the final corner, but that misses the larger picture of Marquez and HRC coming up with a setup that didnít allow Dovizioso to disappear off into the distance the way he had on the Honda the prior year. Sure he made a great calculation of what Marquez was going to do, and made the right adjustment to plan for it. I felt MM showed his hand too early with the overtakes in the double left-hander section earlier in the race as he had far more corner speed through that section than anyone else. Had he been able to make an overtake there instead of waiting for the final corner, he would have been in a greater position to win that race. Silverstone was what it was. If MMís engine doesnít blow, you would have gotten a titanic battle towards the end between Marc and Dovi. Marc was pacing Dovi that entire race before the engine decided to expire on him.

This is all extremely important because it set the stage for Misano perfectly. You could be forgiven for thinking Marc was much further behind in the points than he was given the breathy media stories, and the even breathier fan takes across the various media/social media platforms. Rather than rehash the race and all of that, Iíll just focus on a few things. Before the race started, I was thinking to myself that MM was overdue to give us a true full wet weather victory that would be something special to watch. I just didnít know if this would be the race, or if it would have to wait for another time. The conditions were simply ghastly out there, and Iíd put his ride up against Valeís at Donington in 2005 quite easily because of the fact that MM is locked into a title battle, and had far more to lose should anything have gone wrong. MM made save after save in a way that could only be described as Lawson-esque. This picture perfectly sums up how fine the line between success and failure was Sunday.


Petrucci made some mistakes as well, but it shows the difference between the two riders in that Petrucciís mistakes were enough to cost him the race ultimately as he made them all at the absolutely worst possible times. That is all it takes for MM to have a chance to capitalize on them. But what was really something was the corner exit Marquez had coming out of turn 16 before the start of the final lap. When he needed to get maximum drive out of the corner, he did just that. I have rewatched that corner exit a number of times, and still am amazed that he got better drive out of the corner than the Ducati did. That is no small feat given how great the Ducati is with accelerating out of corners. Sure Marc took a risk to win that race, but it was a calculated risk. Dovi made the decision to settle for third, which was the smart move. But I canít help but wonder how this will play into the final five grands prix. I expect Dovizioso to do well at Motegi and Sepang, but if he finds himself in a situation where he must take risks, is he going to be willing to do so? He is not a rider who rides to risk, and I believe that is his ultimate weakness. Is he going to be willing to go that extra yard that we know Marquez will be willing to go? Possibly, but what you see with Dovi is what you get. At this stage of his career, you do not suddenly develop that killer instinct for being willing to take risk that Marc has had since day 1.

For those who were sorry to see Petrucci miss out on his maiden grand prix victory, to that I say, good, fuck him. Donít forget this is the guy who rode off the circuit to cede position to Rossi at Valencia í15. And then he has the gall to talk about ceding position to Dovizioso as being bad for the sport? Please, you have no leg left to stand on to talk about what is good or bad for the sport after the Valencia í15 move you made. Itís amusing how the clowns who didnít want to get involved with a title battle then are more than willing to do so now, which tells you that there is no unwritten rule of getting involved in championship battles if you yourself are not a contender. It was fairytale horseshit that was thought up by Rossi and the rest of his sycophantic brigade. Capirossiís buddies know all about getting mixed up in title battles that didnít concern them. Petrucci doesnít deserve to ever win a fucking race in his life in the GP class.

Misano also highlighted the need for Dorna to start preparing for life without Rossi. The sport is infinitely better when Rossi is not involved on the grid. When it becomes a full-time reality that he is no longer riding, it will be a beautiful day. Hopefully the grandstands will be devoid of the custard yellow when that day arrives. Itís a shame Dorna burned every single rider who beat Rossi because as I stated numerous times in the past, they have no real succession plan now. All the heirs to the throne canít take the throne since Rossi threw all of them under the bus. Letting your commercial success be dictated by a 38 year old rider coming on retirement is as short-sighted as it gets. Marquez should be the face of GP now, and heís not all because Rossi needed to blame someone else for his own gag reflexes down the stretch two years ago. I do suspect strongly Rossi will re-up for two more seasons next year if for no other reason than to give himself an even twenty seasons (2000-2020) in the premier class. Quite an accomplishment if nothing else, but will hopefully be dwarfed by Marquez stampeding all over every single record of his indefinitely.

As stated, Dovizioso winning the title may be attractive, but everyone should be hoping for Marquez to win because it means we are one step closer to him permanently erasing Rossiís name from the number one spot in the record books. Misano was MMís finest wet weather win ever. Aragon will be interesting if nothing else.

Be well everyone, will drop in where I can. Enjoy the upcoming races.

-JPS
All the best with the health condition.

I always felt that MM was VR 2.0!
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September 12th, 2017, 06:46 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post

I always felt that MM was VR 2.0!
Marquez is nothing like VR, thank Dog. Marc isn't vindictive, petulant, Machiavellian with every possible lever of power and influence off the track, particularly with the promoters or weaponizing the media, nor is he so dainty that he'll threaten to quit if he isn't given advantages to be "competitive". Rossi threatened to quit if he didn’t get Bridgestones, then again when he needed bailing out of Ducati, then as recent as this year after Silverstone where he knew Marc's blown engine gifted him a podium.

Marquez doesn't use his fans to jeer others either, in fact he tells his fans never to behave so poorly. Rossi on the other hand disavows himself from his fans, moreover, he actually blamed the riders getting booed as deserving of it because they "disrespected him". Selectively of course, because Rossi did tell his fans to stay the execution of Iannone after Phillip Island. You will remember Iannone was receiving death threats because Adrea raced Rossi, in violation of Rossi's unwritten rule, punishable by death apparently.

Marc doesn't try to kick riders on the track nor spectators on his scooter in the paddock. Marc doesn't fold at the first sign of pressure either, like Rossi has every time the title has gone to the last round. Marquez is up to the challenge of racing hard, unlike Rossi who becomes so flustered with getting passed several times that he quits racing and tries to ram his rival off the track like he did so infamously.

Marc doesn't bring the entire sport into disrepute by saying his rightful title was robbed; to then disparage the rider who actually earned it. Marc has never won a Mundialito. Marc doesn't accuse other riders of sandbagging when he was only good enough to finish fourth, like Rossi did at Valencia 15.

Marc doesn’t have the benefit of the promoters shielding him from the media by canceling press conferences, nor does he fail to show up to press conferences over fear of what they might ask him, unlike Rossi. Marquez would never appear before the media with fake charts and graphs and wave them around like Joseph McCarthy accusing others of conspiring against him.

Marquez hasn't used his influence to veto competitive teammates. He doesn't need or have an entourage of hangers-on leeching from his career, wasting race coverage to watch his pudgy buddy contort his face with all manner of expressions, a guy who shamelessly admitted to fabricate conspiracy theories.

Marquez doesn't go whining about hard passes then hypocritically tell other competitors "it's racing" when he gets one over like he did at Laguna 08. Marc doesn't eject on the track when he gets a whiff of a rival putting a hard pass on him then whine to race direction for being penalized like Rossi did to Zarco at COTA.

Marc doesn't put on a disingenuous act for the cameras whilst being conniving in reality. With Marc what you see is what you get, not some two-faced clown in the light; whilst a venomous malcontent going around tongue lashing his competitors privately for having the audacity to race him hard, like Rossie did to Pedrosa after Aragon.

Marc doesn’t call the tire manufacturer privately to influence them to trigger changes. If you recall it was a private conversation Rossi had with Michelin, at which time he was told he was the only one with the issue (which Rossi himself admitted during a press conference). Marc doesn't require special tires from Michelin to rack up artificial titles, he takes what they give him and races to the limit.

Marc doesn't go around promoting a discussion about unwritten rules not to race title contenders late into the season, which he could have done this weekend at Misano, Rossi did and even enlisted riders to agree, most ironically and now conveniently Petrucci. Marquez hasn't villainized his teammate, nor villainized other rivals that he has raced against. Rossi's has a long list of rivals he has made into hated figures, two of them currently racing.

Marquez doesn't have an army of Hack Oxleys writing favorable articles influencing public opinion when he has screwed up.

Actually, this would make a great game: how is Marquez not like Rossi?



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Last edited by Jumkie; September 12th, 2017 at 08:33 PM.
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September 12th, 2017, 10:20 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Thanks Mike. Petrucci is one of the best wet weather riders currently on the grid...actually he may be the best as I feel he is consistently better than anyone else in the wet at this point. That being said, I can't let Valencia '15 go because it was simply too egregious an act of letting Rossi by in the manner he did.







I don't think what he is doing is a fluke, but rather it's a result of the tires being designed to be performance leveling. I don't think the Ducati rides itself by any means as we see what Lorenzo's struggles have been the entire year. Ducati did something smart in designing their machine to be easier on tires as tire management is basically half of any given grand prix this season. Manage the tires for half the race, drop the hammer for the second half if possible. I do think the combination of spec electronics plus performance leveling tires plus chassis are the key to the Ducati 'resurgence' more than anything. The Honda is the worst of the three major factory bikes. Suzuki, Aprilia, and KTM are second tier. Dovi is the right rider for the Ducati because of how he rides, but if these tires, in particular the front tire was made to a spec that wasn't of the current dubious nature, and the riders who want to ride the shit out of the front could, what we are watching would take on a rather different air altogether. If he wins the title good on him as he will have done exactly what he needed to do in order to win. We also shouldn't discount Vinales yet either as he is still within striking distance, and only needs a win plus a couple of good finishes to be right back in the thick of things.



Would also say multiple riders are always going to best MM over the course of a season. The abnormality of 2014 withstanding, he isn't going to win that many grands prix in a single season, so "failure" (not winning) is going to always feature more predominantly than "success" (winning). But as mentioned it's about how it all gets put together over the course of 18 races so that the total points is greater than everyone else. It's looking like this may be another season where the world title winner whether it's Marc, Dovi, or Mav bag less than 300 points to take a title. I believe that's really been Dorna's ultimate goal, keep the title battle close as possible for as long as possible.


Welcome back JPS, great set of posts too, I've missed reading your insightful views. Your absence has shown how stale the forum can get when certain prolific posters aren't here.
Thanks for returning and I hope you've got a handle on the health issues now. Good luck and best wishes with them.
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September 12th, 2017, 10:22 PM   #105
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Interesting.

Just read that this race was the first time that a wet race has been won by a rider using Carbon brakes.

Interesting little tidbit which shows the enormity of what was achieved
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September 12th, 2017, 10:55 PM   #106
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Interesting.

Just read that this race was the first time that a wet race has been won by a rider using Carbon brakes.

Interesting little tidbit which shows the enormity of what was achieved
I have noticed Marquez running with Carbon brakes during the wet races, Honda have obviously figured out how to keep them warm during the worst conditions.
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September 12th, 2017, 11:02 PM   #107
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Marquez gets the Rossi 2.0 monicker because of his aggressiveness and race craft. I guess it's kind of fair but Rossi could never in his wildest dreams ride like Marquez who is hs surperior in nearly every way on a bike.

I truly believe if Marquez was riding in the SNS era like Rossi he would have the same dominance as Doohan and if he was in a 2001 type situation he would win every race he didn't crash in.
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September 13th, 2017, 05:41 AM   #108
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I have noticed Marquez running with Carbon brakes during the wet races, Honda have obviously figured out how to keep them warm during the worst conditions.
Not honda. Brembo. I recently read an article from them as part of a series. "The science of motogp brakes" or something similiar. They have changed the carbon mix and also the thickness of the brake disk to retain heat. I'll try and find it.
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September 13th, 2017, 05:42 AM   #109
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JPS welcome back mate.

hope your health is under control.
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September 13th, 2017, 05:56 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Barbedwirebikerr View Post
Not honda. Brembo. I recently read an article from them as part of a series. "The science of motogp brakes" or something similiar. They have changed the carbon mix and also the thickness of the brake disk to retain heat. I'll try and find it.


Yeah they've got to have done something, as at one time if carbon discs and pads got wet they turned to mush.
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