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September 15th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Except really he wasn't beaten by Lorenzo or Rossi, he was beaten by himself and I guess a lack of experience. He finished 90 points down on Lorenzo, despite 6 DNFs. If he had the experience at that point of knowing that settling for podium positions and not trying to win every race he would would won the title based on the positions he crashed out of while trying to catch the leader.

Strongly disagree Marquez made VR pay at Valencia, he couldn't get drive out of the corner to get past Lorenzo at the overtaking points at Valencia. What we saw really was similar to the way Marquez shadowed Petrucci on the weekend trying to force him to make a mistake so he can get past. The big difference is Lornezo mental ability when in that situation is second to none. If he want to protect Lorenzo he sits back about a second rather than pushing him to record pace the whole way.
He couldn't pass him without making a risky move on what is a notoriously one line track.

Having succeeded in having MM admonished for racing Rossi hard but cleanly/fairly imo for position at Sepang, Rossi and the Rossi gang then wanted MM to risk taking Lorenzo out to pass him at Valencia, a notoriously one line track. I am fairly sure he would have attempted such a move if it was for him to win the title, but why on earth would he do so to win Rossi a title given what had preceded the race?.

Sometimes despite all efforts even Rossi just can't have it all ways.
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September 15th, 2017, 06:54 AM   #82
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He couldn't pass him without making a risky move on what is a notoriously one line track.

Having succeeded in having MM admonished for racing Rossi hard but cleanly/fairly imo for position at Sepang, Rossi and the Rossi gang then wanted MM to risk taking Lorenzo out to pass him at Valencia, a notoriously one line track. I am fairly sure he would have attempted such a move if it was for him to win the title, but why on earth would he do so to win Rossi a title given what had preceded the race?.

Sometimes despite all efforts even Rossi just can't have it all ways.
Four years ago at the Catalan GP which Jorge won, there was similar incredulity on here in respect of Márquez. Several concluded that because of his perceived reluctance to pass Pedrosa for second he was obviously - in his maiden year - subject to team orders, with Pedrosa viewed as the title protagonist that must therefore be protected. Firstly, as many have since pointed out, it isn't in Marc's DNA to ride shotgun for anyone and secondly, like Valencia, Catalunya is similarly a single line circuit and aside from out dragging and outbraking into turn 1, notoriously difficult to pass without incurring some degree of risk.

I still chuckle about this today.

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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
Strongly disagree Marquez made VR pay at Valencia, he couldn't get drive out of the corner to get past Lorenzo at the overtaking points at Valencia.
The amount of Rossi apologists that are utterly incapable of comprehending this fundamentally self evident fact is frankly astonishing.
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September 15th, 2017, 10:25 AM   #83
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Make no mistake: A bloke putting his arse on the line every weekend at 38 to win another title is obsessed.
I wouldn't say obsessed, but rather advantaged; Rossi simply recognizes the organizers will go to great lengths to prop him up. Rossi’s career was essentially over in 2012, but it was given a lifeline by the CEO of MotoGP. From henceforth it was a 'partnership' in the classic sense (before that it was more like nepotism, Carmelo's favorite son). He is racing at 38 because he has never been subject to the wear and tear of other competitors, quite the opposite, his trajectory through the last 15 years have been fairly smooth, providing him longevity whilst others had to battle. Any bump in the road has been quickly smoothed over by Dorna. You want these Bridgestones? Well let's coerce the manufacturer to provide these tires, we don't want you to quit. Cannot handle this Ducati, no problem let's coerce Yamaha to take you back, we don't want you to quit. Don't like these Michelins, no worries, Michelin don't need coercion, but let's have a bullshit vote to make it appear legit; we don't want you to quit.

Rossi has been artificially propped up for most of his MotoGP career, this has preserved him unlike any others, thanks to massive advantages. Can you imagine the wear and tear to risk life and limp to beat a guy while you're on inferior tires? The mental focus by others, the bad guys, must be exhausting. Rossi was fresh as a daisy, tooking the track knowing his tires were superior from 2001-2006, then again in 08-09. MotoGP's tire dynamic revolved around Rossi and this has preserved him physically and mentally. Can you imagine how much confidence and preservation that afforded him? No, no you can't. It's no coincidence that Rossi started suffering injuries and never again winning titles when he didn’t have such an advantage, starting in 2010. Rossi's true career trajectory would have looked more like it's been since 2010. Rossi will likely sign another 2 years taking him to 40. That doesn't seem odd to you? Of course not. No explanation needed.

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Yes - MM is clearly very special, but if he was so unbeatable, he wouldn't be trailing VR and JL at that point in the season by so many points.
Wait wait, what kind of logic are you employing here? You accept that Rossi is 'thee ultimate special one'; but he hasn't won jack shit even with advantages! Where would Rossi be if Michelin hadn't provided him SNS, Bridgestones development in 08-09, Carmelo's sport agent services in 2012, Race Direction's rejection of black flag in 15, and Michelin's reenstated #70 tire in 17? Don't you find it interesting that Rossi has never been on the losing end of any significant Dorna decisions ever in his career? Yet you try to use some odd logic to question why Marc is not as special as we think?

To be fair, Marc enjoyed a classic Rossi style advantage when he joined MotoGP when Dorna eliminated the Rookie Rule. Marc jumped on the best machine at the time, and given Bridgestones' characteristics, was able to barely win the season, but I doubt he would have won the title if Lorenzo had not been injured.

The 'problem' Dorna recognize immediately was that Rossi wouldn't ever stand a chance again if Bridgestone continued to provide the championship tires! Certainly it would be Lorenzo and Marquez domination of the race wins. When you become the sport agent for Rossi, this tire reality was something of a investment hazard. Carmelo knows a thing or two about the value of investment, and his investment in Rossi was bleak under Bridgestone, not good after he bailed out out Roosi from Ducati. There was a good likelihood that Rossi might not ever win again. Bridgestone became the sacrificial lamb. Enter Michelin, and miraculously Rossi has become increasingly competitive.

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Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
The problem VR now has is that MM has learnt how to manage a season FROM VR. He no longer is the 'win or bin' rider. Rather, he is managing races better than anyone out there (see his wins at the Sachsenring this year, last year, and his win at Brno in the wet).
He learned this from VR? Because Rossi won the people's title in 2015, right? You don't think this was a lesson he learned from his own analysis of the 'actual' 2015 champion, a guy named Jorge Lorenzo?

I do agree that Dorna now have a new problem, but Carmelo has a great track record of solving these "problems." They add something mid season, or 11th hour to the rule book. Remember when Dorna eliminated the warning points system? They had originally instituted it to control Marquez, never dreaming it would be detrimental to Rossi.

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Very sad. I thought MM made him pay at Valencia (which I don't begrudge him either).
Oh yeah, Marc refused to pass Lorenzo and purposefully blocked Pedrosa at Valencia 2015 (sarcasm). I read somebody here recently say something to the effect, in reference to Marquez, that they had never seen somebody so clearly dominate the elite field of riders in a race. I beg to differ, take a look back at the Valencia race in 2013. Lorenzo played with the entire field like a cat does with a mouse. I bring this up since you're convinced Marc could have easily passed Lorenzo at Valencia, a track that Jorge had mastered on the M1 Bridgestone shod package. I'm sure you've heard the old adage, it's one thing to catch a rider, it's entirely another to pass him. If you think either Marc or Pedrosa were going to easily pass Lorenzo, revisit Valencia 2013.

And for shits and giggles, I'll add the following, since you have always come on here saying i subscribe to conspiracy regarding Rossi's career. You don't find it hypocritical that above you admit to believing in the great conspiracy by Marquez to help Lorenzo/against Rossi at Valencia 2015. Meanwhile, your evidence is simply a figment of Uccio's imagination, while in my case there is real evidence Rossi was the beneficiary of SNS tires, Bridgestone stating they didn’t want to service more riders, power politics, race direction decisions refusal to black flag, and Carmelo acting as Rossi's sport agent.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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September 15th, 2017, 11:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
Four years ago at the Catalan GP which Jorge won, there was similar incredulity on here in respect of Márquez. Several concluded that because of his perceived reluctance to pass Pedrosa for second he was obviously - in his maiden year - subject to team orders, with Pedrosa viewed as the title protagonist that must therefore be protected. Firstly, as many have since pointed out, it isn't in Marc's DNA to ride shotgun for anyone and secondly, like Valencia, Catalunya is similarly a single line circuit and aside from out dragging and outbraking into turn 1, notoriously difficult to pass without incurring some degree of risk.

I still chuckle about this today.
Oh for the love of Buddha. Not this shit again.. see your sig compa.

The argument was conflated by two separate notions, one of classic team orders, the other the possibility that Marquez was cognizant of not taking out his teammate. Given that Marc had up until that race made a few sketchy controversial maneuvers, you rejected the notion it had been brought up in conversation by equating thus conflating the possibility, then rejecting it on the basis it was tantamount to team orders. It would seem Marquez was locked away inbetween races, like some gimp, never aware of any possible conversations analysing previous race maneuvers particularly when it came to racing a teammate. It's not like surely it came up after their Aragon incident, even though it was eventually blamed on the placement of a sensor. That no conversation ever took place, even indirectly about racing your teammate, not the least being how it might effect his own race, going into this Catalonia GP is as comical now as it was then. A chuckle indeed my friend.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Last edited by Jumkie; September 15th, 2017 at 11:31 AM.
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September 15th, 2017, 12:09 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
Oh for the love of Buddha. Not this shit again.. see your sig compa.

The argument was conflated by two separate notions, one of classic team orders, the other the possibility that Marquez was cognizant of not taking out his teammate. Given that Marc had up until that race made a few sketchy controversial maneuvers, you rejected the notion it had been brought up in conversation by equating thus conflating the possibility, then rejecting it on the basis it was tantamount to team orders. It would seem Marquez was locked away inbetween races, like some gimp, never aware of any possible conversations analysing previous race maneuvers particularly when it came to racing a teammate. It's not like surely it came up after their Aragon incident, even though it was eventually blamed on the placement of a sensor. That no conversation ever took place, even indirectly about racing your teammate, not the least being how it might effect his own race, going into this Catalonia GP is as comical now as it was then. A chuckle indeed my friend.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Daniboy, can I borrow your fishing gear this weekend?
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September 15th, 2017, 01:28 PM   #86
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Daniboy, can I borrow your fishing gear this weekend?
Certainly











You should catch Jumkie with that

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September 15th, 2017, 02:06 PM   #87
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Certainly











You should catch Jumkie with that
Already landed and gutted by teatime
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September 15th, 2017, 03:15 PM   #88
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Daniboy, can I borrow your fishing gear this weekend?
You'll need these.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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September 15th, 2017, 03:53 PM   #89
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The Rossi fanatics...
Shauna, is this you?

You know, there are easier ways to go shopping.

https://instagram.com/p/BZCQ8D5heiw/

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September 15th, 2017, 07:49 PM   #90
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I wouldn't say obsessed, but rather advantaged; Rossi simply recognizes the organizers will go to great lengths to prop him up. Rossi’s career was essentially over in 2012, but it was given a lifeline by the CEO of MotoGP. From henceforth it was a 'partnership' in the classic sense (before that it was more like nepotism, Carmelo's favorite son). He is racing at 38 because he has never been subject to the wear and tear of other competitors, quite the opposite, his trajectory through the last 15 years have been fairly smooth, providing him longevity whilst others had to battle. Any bump in the road has been quickly smoothed over by Dorna. You want these Bridgestones? Well let's coerce the manufacturer to provide these tires, we don't want you to quit. Cannot handle this Ducati, no problem let's coerce Yamaha to take you back, we don't want you to quit. Don't like these Michelins, no worries, Michelin don't need coercion, but let's have a bullshit vote to make it appear legit; we don't want you to quit.

Rossi has been artificially propped up for most of his MotoGP career, this has preserved him unlike any others, thanks to massive advantages. Can you imagine the wear and tear to risk life and limp to beat a guy while you're on inferior tires? The mental focus by others, the bad guys, must be exhausting. Rossi was fresh as a daisy, tooking the track knowing his tires were superior from 2001-2006, then again in 08-09. MotoGP's tire dynamic revolved around Rossi and this has preserved him physically and mentally. Can you imagine how much confidence and preservation that afforded him? No, no you can't. It's no coincidence that Rossi started suffering injuries and never again winning titles when he didn’t have such an advantage, starting in 2010. Rossi's true career trajectory would have looked more like it's been since 2010. Rossi will likely sign another 2 years taking him to 40. That doesn't seem odd to you? Of course not. No explanation needed.



Wait wait, what kind of logic are you employing here? You accept that Rossi is 'thee ultimate special one'; but he hasn't won jack shit even with advantages! Where would Rossi be if Michelin hadn't provided him SNS, Bridgestones development in 08-09, Carmelo's sport agent services in 2012, Race Direction's rejection of black flag in 15, and Michelin's reenstated #70 tire in 17? Don't you find it interesting that Rossi has never been on the losing end of any significant Dorna decisions ever in his career? Yet you try to use some odd logic to question why Marc is not as special as we think?

To be fair, Marc enjoyed a classic Rossi style advantage when he joined MotoGP when Dorna eliminated the Rookie Rule. Marc jumped on the best machine at the time, and given Bridgestones' characteristics, was able to barely win the season, but I doubt he would have won the title if Lorenzo had not been injured.

The 'problem' Dorna recognize immediately was that Rossi wouldn't ever stand a chance again if Bridgestone continued to provide the championship tires! Certainly it would be Lorenzo and Marquez domination of the race wins. When you become the sport agent for Rossi, this tire reality was something of a investment hazard. Carmelo knows a thing or two about the value of investment, and his investment in Rossi was bleak under Bridgestone, not good after he bailed out out Roosi from Ducati. There was a good likelihood that Rossi might not ever win again. Bridgestone became the sacrificial lamb. Enter Michelin, and miraculously Rossi has become increasingly competitive.



He learned this from VR? Because Rossi won the people's title in 2015, right? You don't think this was a lesson he learned from his own analysis of the 'actual' 2015 champion, a guy named Jorge Lorenzo?

I do agree that Dorna now have a new problem, but Carmelo has a great track record of solving these "problems." They add something mid season, or 11th hour to the rule book. Remember when Dorna eliminated the warning points system? They had originally instituted it to control Marquez, never dreaming it would be detrimental to Rossi.



Oh yeah, Marc refused to pass Lorenzo and purposefully blocked Pedrosa at Valencia 2015 (sarcasm). I read somebody here recently say something to the effect, in reference to Marquez, that they had never seen somebody so clearly dominate the elite field of riders in a race. I beg to differ, take a look back at the Valencia race in 2013. Lorenzo played with the entire field like a cat does with a mouse. I bring this up since you're convinced Marc could have easily passed Lorenzo at Valencia, a track that Jorge had mastered on the M1 Bridgestone shod package. I'm sure you've heard the old adage, it's one thing to catch a rider, it's entirely another to pass him. If you think either Marc or Pedrosa were going to easily pass Lorenzo, revisit Valencia 2013.

And for shits and giggles, I'll add the following, since you have always come on here saying i subscribe to conspiracy regarding Rossi's career. You don't find it hypocritical that above you admit to believing in the great conspiracy by Marquez to help Lorenzo/against Rossi at Valencia 2015. Meanwhile, your evidence is simply a figment of Uccio's imagination, while in my case there is real evidence Rossi was the beneficiary of SNS tires, Bridgestone stating they didn’t want to service more riders, power politics, race direction decisions refusal to black flag, and Carmelo acting as Rossi's sport agent.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
I don't have a problem with most of RCV's recent arguments, except about Valencia where I agree and have said only a very high risk move would have got him past Lorenzo, and as has also been said if he had wanted to block for Lorenzo he would surely have stayed a few seconds back rather than pushing him to near lap record pace for most of the race. Dani's failed pass, taken as evidence of blocking by MM, is actually evidence to the contrary, he had to go right off line in the attempt, wasn't going to be able to make it stick anyway on the line he had to take, and the move nearly brought him and MM together.

I don't expect logic from the Valeban (not including you in their number RCV) but they seemed to have required of MM a much more questionable move than anything involved in his confrontation with Rossi at Sepang, in regard to which they complained so bitterly and for which MM was admonished after RD had presumably employed mind reading equipment.
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