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September 11th, 2017, 02:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
There is actually an answer to your question. The promoters learned that creating a narrative around a hero vs villains sells, it's a typical Hollywood creation adapted for sport consumption, it works. It's a marketing paradigm shift that once it was realized became increasingly sophisticated. This led to a skewed competition, because to have a hero, the hero needs to win by beating the villains. The promoters manufacturer that artificial record by a mechanism of advantages written into the rule book. For example, the advantages of specially designed tire done legally, this is the most famous and easily understood, but there have been many more examples. You see, something "legal" is misconstrued as "fair"! Nobody questions legal advantages. And so on... what we end up with is a peculiar reaction by the masses of fans who gravitate towards "winners". Look no further than the two big soccer clubs Barcelona & Real Madrid. People buy their jerseys without the slightest affiliation. They become blind to the facts that is responsible for the artificial "success", they seem unaware of the lopsided advantages. The fact that a 300 million dollar club beats a 45 million dollar club is not factored in to the equation of outcomes, astonishingly it's perceived as fair competition. It was the same with the Yankees for example, a club that basically bought many of its titles (until the parity model changed in American baseball). Incidentally, the parity model for Spain's league of Barcelona & Real Madrid is still skewed. Other top flight soccer leagues have mitigated the parity model; however, It's not a coincidence that DORNA subscribes to a similar competition model being a Spanish league itself.

Then there is a sport MEDIA (the main subject of this post) which is something I'd like to draw your attention to here. The media are the drivers of most of what fans think, accept, and discuss. For example, since Rossi was injured in a training incident, several articles have been written on the subject which purposefully paint Rossi's training regiment as an admirable commitment to improve particularly praiseworthy. It wasn't enough to write articles and disseminate tweets on social media, every rider was asked to comment over the weekend and since! There are video interviews where the leading questions beg the answer: yes, Rossi is right to train, and the risks he takes are an example of his dedication. However, this media blitz is disproportionate when other riders are injured during training. I'll give you two examples of this disproportionate handling of incidents then move on; when Nicky Hayden injured his heel and ankle riding supermoto, there were not multiple articles written in a positive light to approve of his participation in such activities, nor was most the paddock asked if training supermoto should be banned. In fact, the general arch of perception was it was a stupid unnecessary injury, frowned upon by his employer as I recall (surely Yamaha aren't voicing their displeasure with Rossi).

Here is my second example, recently Hack Oxley discussed the Silverstone GP alongside Freddy Spencer at some UK royal motorsport club (you can probably find it on youtube). Oxley referenced the barging by Marquez on Lorenzo at Jerez in 2013 (the one that was a carbon copy of Jerez 05 Rossi /Sete) Hack Oxley characterized Lorenzo maintaining his line around the penultimate corner as evidence of "Lorenzo's fragile ego!" That's a quote. Absurd right? The incident was brought up by Oxley for this purpose; let me explain his ludicrous logic, he said Dovi let Marc past at Silverstone because unlike Lorenzo, Dovi is not afflicted by capricious ego and was willing to let Marc by, in effect letting Marquez be the author of his own demise, allowing Dovi to recover the line and win. Oxley reasoned, Lorenzo's capricious nature compelled by Jorge's "fragile ego" held fast onto his race line in 2013, inviting Marc to use him as a berm and effectively losing the position--follow me here; Oxley basically is "reasoning", it was Lorenzo's fault because his ego is so fragile not to have let Marc by to then overtake the position like Dovi! Can you imagine a sport rider of consequence and the affect of his opinions saying something so outrageous? Keep in mind, this logic is intended to exonerate Rossi's barging of Sete in 2005! It's a litigation by fallacy, if Lorenzo's "fragile ego" caused his demise--so then Sete was at fault for Rossi's infamous move to "win" that race: lore preserved! How do you suppose it affects readers, particularly Rossi fans? Oxley repeatedly says shit like this to cue who are the 'villains' Lorenzo is decidedly one-hence being cheered when he crashed today. Oh Oxley will tell you it's because Lorenzo showed a thumbs down to Rossi at Sepang 05 (whitewashing the fact Jorge did that because Rossi had just tried to run a competitor off track and didn't deserve to stand on the podium). Oxley provides the minions their cues, cues that come decidedly from Rossi's McCarthiest opinions.

The point I'm making Michael is that the media are responsible for building up Rossi to astronomical disproportionate heights. They refused then and still now to call Rossi on the carpet for the villainization of rivals. There is a thread here titled: Rossi still won't let it go. With the media, it's quite the contrary, then have done their best not to ruffle Rossi’s sentiments about the great Marquez conspiracy--hence why he was booed today. I predict you'll read in the coming days some media figures declare: the boo birds at Misano displayed disgusting behavior, bla bla. They will because the display was so noticeable it requires the journalists to cover their asses. The authors will grandstand; but I'll tell you what they won't do, they will NOT place the blame on Rossi for starting this shit, and they certainly won't raise their hands taking responsibility for not aggressively writing against it in the past (though I'm sure they'll point you to some flaccid line buried in some article that they disagreed with Rossi claiming Marc conspired. Notwithstanding, you may remember, Marc Marquez pointed out that Rossi WEAPONIZES the MEDIA--this cannot happen unless that media is a partner!

You asked how Rossi became so popular? Take a look below. Marc Marquez put in an astonishing performance today. You would think that's the lead of any story discussing today's amazing race, particularly the last lap. Well, you'd be wrong. The lead of the summary by David Emmett (Kropo) for today's performance was the absence of Valentino Rossi! In fact, the first 8 paragraph are basically all in direct or indirect reference to Rossi! Oh, it gets worse. Not only were the first paragraphs dedicated to Rossi's absence (it's in the title FFS) and the survival of MotoGP post Rossi; but the initial explanation for Marc's performance was, as Kropotkin reasoned: the affect of Rossi's boo birds turned motivation--that is, it ALL revolves around Rossi. Without Rossi and his fans perhaps Marc wouldn't have tried so hard--Kropo logic.

Get this, Krops says that Marc threw caution to the wind in order to exact revenge on Rossi's minions--the reason for Marc's determination! No, no, it wasn't the primary obvious objective to fight for a win in the same exact way Marc did at Silverstone, where he didn’t have this particular score to settle! No, no, it wasn't the standard operating procedure we see when a shark like Marquez smells the blood of a possible win in sight. The same compelling tenacity that we've seen countless times at places like Argentina, Assen, Mugello (against Lorenzo) Philip Island ("to help Lorenzo"). No, Marquez put in that last lap performance because...wait for it: Rossi’s fucking fans!

That's why Rossi is so popular Michael, because every possible narrative revolves around Rossi. Not the least being bullshit acts of "democracy" to reinstate a previously almost unanimously rejected tire. Here too Hack Oxley (and Krops) jumped into service, redirecting the perceptions of reinstating #70 tire did not pass the stench test, they declared in chorus-- 'no, it's not a tire conspiracy.' Classic, "the lady doth protest too much."

So to answer your question, there are several reasons why Rossi became 'disproportionately' so popular, one reason is skewed and gutless media covering the sport.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
To be fair I think his teenage persona was not such an act, he had genuine wit and charm, the antics back then were genuinely amusing, and his approach and riding were Marquez like, except that his was the apotheosis of a traditional riding style rather than being right out there like MM now.

If he had retired after 2009 I would not have disputed him being called the GOAT, but like Povol I now see him as one among a number of greats of the sport. As our recent new poster (EDIT Repsol 93) said, the problems are the Valeban and his attitude when confronted with rivals who are actually genuinely competitive or close to competitive with him.

Last edited by michaelm; September 11th, 2017 at 04:14 AM.
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September 11th, 2017, 04:21 AM   #62
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Valeban doing what they do on Crashnet.

No-one seems cognisant of the fact that MM just rode a 1.2 second faster last lap to win a race after coming pretty much as close as is possible to losing his bike on multiple occasions earller in the race, to win a race against a non-contender at considerable risk to his title chances, because he could, when such a lap was taken as evidence of earlier tanking at PI 2015, a circuit where he has otherwise not finished a race in the premier class.
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September 11th, 2017, 04:33 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BarryMachine View Post
Blame the bell curve.

rossis fans are of average intelligence ..... at best. So that means the bottom half of a bell curve, depicting human intelligence, are all rossi boppers.

The upper half is the rest of society ..... a minor part of which are non-rossiboppers. The lower part of the upper half are folk who arent into motogp. They are still above boppers though.
This cracked me up.

I understand the Italian fans wanting one of the Italians to win this last weekend. But we all know that they boo Marquez no matter what, because despite Rossi's HORRENDOUS decision to bump MM in 2015, the Valeban blame Marquez and Lorenzo for every damn thing Rossi does wrong. And Rossi encourages it. It's horrible for the sport. Marc with his smile and jokes and skill was a great replacement for the Rossi fans, but instead Rossi and DORNA and auntie Uccio have made him some kind of nasty witch guy. What a shame.

Rossi has always been a very aggressive rider and I first lost respect for him when he intentionally whacked Gibernau. An obnoxious poor sportman move, for which he did not receive proper punishment. And he has made plenty of aggressive moves since then. Which is why I am always shocked at his popularity. He is like the evil pro wrestling character with a Pee-Wee Herman Smile. He can fool most of the people most of the time. But not all of us.
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September 12th, 2017, 05:08 AM   #64
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I didn't finish my intended discusssion in regard to your points about the PI 2015 thing. I am sure emotions were both strong and influential in more than one party, and I also find credible David Emmett's opinion about Alzamora's lack of character.

I tend to believe MM did have gripes about the 2 incidents with Rossi earlier in the season, not very justifiably imo about at least 1 of them. He didn't respond by calling Rossi a proven cheat to the world press however. My view, supported by his emotional reaction to being called a cheat by Rossi imo, including reports that extraordinarily tough young man was brought to tears by the accusation, is that he made a deliberate effort not to interfere with the title contenders in the PI race, in terms of riding manoeuvres that might put them at risk anyway. The facts are also that he took the win when it was available, and that the tactics he adopted in 2015 are the only ones which have ever resulted in him finishing let alone winning at PI in the premier class, so it is hard to see how he merits criticism for those tactics. I don't think either he or Lorenzo wanted to be involved in a last lap stoush with an Andre Iannone desperate for his first podium either, as Lorenzo actually said, so if it was possible to arrange which I doubt leaving Iannone tangled up with Rossi was a good tactic in itself.
It seems improbable that MM helping Lorenzo.

It is possible, but I think highly unlikely, that he was helping Lorenzo, but not to his own detriment (ie he knew he had much more pace that JL, AI and VR, and so he could pull the pin with two laps to go). The difficulty with that argument is that "helping" JL by bunching them up could also imperil JL by putting AI and VR in front of him...

My own view is that Rossi considers Marc to be more powerful than he really is. For MM to be able to manipulate a race with such outstanding riders to such a level of precision is not really possible. MM's mid-race drop off was likely an effort to conserve his tyres.

I think MM is the first rider that Rossi fears. He's just as decisive and capable when it comes to passing (which takes extraordinary ability). Rossi's fear and suspicion drove his paranoia on that occasion.

I never heard that MM was brought to tears. Wow. No wonder his hate for VR is so intense.
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September 12th, 2017, 05:19 AM   #65
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Your barking up the wrong tree if you are thinking Pov is the type to be scouring the net finding 'evidence' for you. I thought you being on the forum longer than me you would realise he is a more take it or leave it style poster.
Sure - but I don't really take claims seriously if they can't be evidenced.

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For what it's worth I seem to recall Burgess saying what Pov says in an interview possibly in the movie faster. It's pretty typical of his arrogant type of comment to claim other riders and crew chiefs don't know jack compared to him and Rossi. Mr Fixed in 80 seconds remember.
This is why evidence is important (with respect). Burgess never said he'd fix the Ducati in 80 seconds. He said that the behaviour of the bikes with some of the "lesser" riders on the Ducati (i.e. not CS and NH!) showed that they were setting up their bikes too soft - a problem he'd fix in "80 seconds" if they had that issue

Please see the interview here (which helps in giving context):
SCOOP: Jeremy Burgess talks about his move to Ducati with Rossi | Sport Rider

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Originally Posted by birdman View Post
Passport and popularity had a great impact on which tyres Michelin would provide a rider so naturally they had as much influence on the direction of development such as in SNS. Evidence? Ask Casey Stoner. He was occasionally the quickest guy on the grid even on second tier tires. To which Michelin would respond by demoting him 3rd tier tires. Says so in his book. Says it was because he was too outspoken. Go figure.
Yes - everyone knows that CS was used as a test mule for the SNS. I never disputed that only the top few riders got the SNS (in 06, factory Honda and Yamaha, as well as Melandri and sometimes Elias and KR?).

Interestingly, CS also hinted that Michelin stitched VR up at Valencia 06 (funny how that's never mentioned by the Rossi assassins...).

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The other famous example was the one and only Mr Squiggle. He was the only rider who immediately favoured the 16.5 inch tire while all the rest preferred the 17. As long as the compound was very soft, McCoy was very fast. But I seem to remember that man Burgess again shaking his head gravely pronouncing all that dirty sideways tire smoking action was not the correct way to ride a motorcycle. In no time at all the supersoft disappeared only to be replaced by the Rossi hard and poor old Gary was left to sing what about me?
FWIW, Doohan said the same about Gazza.

Are you sure your memory is right on that? I can't be sure, but my recollection was that Gazza preferred the 16.5 - and as soon as Rossi started using it, Gazza lost his advantage. Are you sure the soft was withdrawn? Did Gazza or Factory Yamaha say anything about it?
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September 12th, 2017, 05:24 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Valeban doing what they do on Crashnet.

No-one seems cognisant of the fact that MM just rode a 1.2 second faster last lap to win a race after coming pretty much as close as is possible to losing his bike on multiple occasions earller in the race, to win a race against a non-contender at considerable risk to his title chances, because he could, when such a lap was taken as evidence of earlier tanking at PI 2015, a circuit where he has otherwise not finished a race in the premier class.
It was one of his best races. He had it completely under control.
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September 12th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #67
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It seems improbable that MM helping Lorenzo.

It is possible, but I think highly unlikely, that he was helping Lorenzo, but not to his own detriment (ie he knew he had much more pace that JL, AI and VR, and so he could pull the pin with two laps to go). The difficulty with that argument is that "helping" JL by bunching them up could also imperil JL by putting AI and VR in front of him...

My own view is that Rossi considers Marc to be more powerful than he really is. For MM to be able to manipulate a race with such outstanding riders to such a level of precision is not really possible. MM's mid-race drop off was likely an effort to conserve his tyres.

I think MM is the first rider that Rossi fears. He's just as decisive and capable when it comes to passing (which takes extraordinary ability). Rossi's fear and suspicion drove his paranoia on that occasion.

I never heard that MM was brought to tears. Wow. No wonder his hate for VR is so intense.
I think a conspiracy to help Lorenzo because he is a fellow Spaniard is very unlikely. A slightly more plausible notion and one which Rossi may believe is that MM wants to be the 8/10 times or more world champion and thwart Rossi from being so, but this would also be reflective of Rossi's obsession with same if I am to be totally hypocritical and dabble in cod psychology.

I think you have hit it, Rossi and his entourage and that element among his fans have actually attributed even more ability to MM than he actually has, nobody can determine the race order behind him in a win with the other riders all trying. He nearly lost the bike twice earlier in that PI race, including a massive tank slapper when on his own, and when he rode flat out all race as he apparently could and should have done in 2015 crashed out of substantial leads in both the 2014 and 2016 races, to say nothing of crashing out of 6 races prior to PI in 2015, possibly why Rossi and Lorenzo had their chance that year in the first place. What he can do and has just done again to win another race is a ridiculous banzai single lap, which he now seems to have learned is best reserved for the last lap of a race.

I think the report of him being brought to tears was from David Emmett.
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September 12th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
It seems improbable that MM helping Lorenzo.

It is possible, but I think highly unlikely, that he was helping Lorenzo, but not to his own detriment (ie he knew he had much more pace that JL, AI and VR, and so he could pull the pin with two laps to go). The difficulty with that argument is that "helping" JL by bunching them up could also imperil JL by putting AI and VR in front of him...

My own view is that Rossi considers Marc to be more powerful than he really is. For MM to be able to manipulate a race with such outstanding riders to such a level of precision is not really possible. MM's mid-race drop off was likely an effort to conserve his tyres.

I think MM is the first rider that Rossi fears. He's just as decisive and capable when it comes to passing (which takes extraordinary ability). Rossi's fear and suspicion drove his paranoia on that occasion.

I never heard that MM was brought to tears. Wow. No wonder his hate for VR is so intense.
Agree with you about Rossi/Marquez. Rossis reasoning says it all IIRC at the time Rossi said that Marquezs reason for helping Lorenzo would mean that it would be one less title that he would have to get to surpass Rossi. I can understand it, Rossi has built a brand and a legacy that he expected to last for decades and then the most talented rider he's ever seen comes along and has the ambition and talent to surpass his legacy before he 5 years into retirement.
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September 12th, 2017, 08:31 AM   #69
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The Rossi fanatics that don't recognise the talents of other riders who take the sourness out on things long gone give the rest of us "normal" fans a bad rep
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September 12th, 2017, 09:43 AM   #70
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how the fuck did Vale got so popular anyways? I remember being a teenager back when Vale started his first season in the premier class and he was already a mass phenomenon. Back then I watched the races cuz my brother did but wasn't as involved in the sport as I am today. Mick Doohan won 5 in a row and it wasn't anything like that
Doohan didn't have the flamboyance that Rossi did, he was a no nonsense winning machine, he was relentless, he was cold blooded, he was Jaws and the fucking Terminator rolled into one, he's the best rider I've had the privilege to watch but he was no showman with silly gimmicks to appeal to the masses.
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