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September 5th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
Do you have any evidence of this? I know Bridgestone initially refused, but do you have evidence that Dorna forced them?
Yes, they threatened Bridgestone with a spec tire, something they never wanted. Beating Michelin was the reward they were after. After Bridgestone was forced to supply Rossi with tires, Pedrosa demanded them and was denied. After two thirds of the 08 season Pedrosa was finally allowed the Bridgestones . After Lorenzo was allowed to use the Bridgestones for 2009 , Michelin left GP with their tales between their legs giving Bridgestone exactly what they didn't want, to be sole supplier of GP racing

Do you have evidence of this? Who was this younger rider?


All the top riders got the SNS - Biaggi, Sete, Hayden, etc
All the top riders got tires based of data taken from Burgess. If you could ride tires based on Rossi preference, you were good to go, if not, you were screwed.. Rossi and Burgess built a mythical empire with their now famous "they found something overnight" . What they found was fucking tailored tires for race day , that was the magic. As soon as the SNS were banned, Rossi was trounced by Stoner in 2007 which led to his threatening to quit if his demand for Bridgestones was not met. This is when DORNA sprang into action and made their threats. It's all documented if you have followed the sport for more than 3-4 years.
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September 5th, 2017, 09:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryMachine View Post
Did you miss the time rossi kicked Marquez



He should not still be on track ... based on that alone.


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September 6th, 2017, 12:24 AM   #33
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In fairness to the other members here:

I'm a very open Rossi supporter, always have been. Sure there's often posts and comments that go against Rossi however more often than not I can understand where the person is coming from. i have in the past made posts and even threads abot Rossi and have never really had an issue. Here's the occasional smart arse comment to me but I take it in humour, I certainly haven't felt any hate from other members here.

But having said that, while I'm a Rossi supporter I'm not one of those that constantly slaps it in their face either, claiming all other riders are in the wrong and Rossi reigns supreme lol so that probably has a lot to do with it haha

I like a healthy debate. Would be boring if we were all supporting the same rider
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September 6th, 2017, 10:00 AM   #34
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I quite like the sound of moto 40 ��
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September 6th, 2017, 02:42 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RyanH88 View Post
I think it's kind of obvious that there are a lot of people that hate Rossi on here, no?
Yes we are the Rossi hater lynch mob out for blood. Seriously I've seen Rossi ride live on track and I'm in awe of his skills. The difference attending a gp is no tv commentators no waving at the camera no soap opera just plain racing.

I can't vouch for the other haters but I'd happily have a beer with Rossi assuming I could get past Uccio and I wouldn't do hater things like abuse or spit or threaten his family. He's just a man, I think, not the devil. Can't promise I wouldn't give his bar stool a little kick. Even if he fell of they couldn't eject me from the pub without the data to prove it wasn't his stool that hit my foot first.
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September 7th, 2017, 01:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
All the top riders got tires based of data taken from Burgess. If you could ride tires based on Rossi preference, you were good to go, if not, you were screwed.. Rossi and Burgess built a mythical empire with their now famous "they found something overnight" . What they found was fucking tailored tires for race day , that was the magic. As soon as the SNS were banned, Rossi was trounced by Stoner in 2007 which led to his threatening to quit if his demand for Bridgestones was not met. This is when DORNA sprang into action and made their threats. It's all documented if you have followed the sport for more than 3-4 years.
What Bridgestone should have done was give Dorna the middle finger then gone public, maybe then we would have someone who isn't a crook running Dorna.
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September 7th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post
Yes we are the Rossi hater lynch mob out for blood. Seriously I've seen Rossi ride live on track and I'm in awe of his skills. The difference attending a gp is no tv commentators no waving at the camera no soap opera just plain racing.

I can't vouch for the other haters but I'd happily have a beer with Rossi assuming I could get past Uccio and I wouldn't do hater things like abuse or spit or threaten his family. He's just a man, I think, not the devil. Can't promise I wouldn't give his bar stool a little kick. Even if he fell of they couldn't eject me from the pub without the data to prove it wasn't his stool that hit my foot first.
When he lived in Fulham (London) I spoke to him a few times and no that fat jelly bloke wasn't around. He was always pleasant. So no I don't hate him I hate the fat slob who is IMO Rossi's mouthpiece to the media and the custard crowd who boo everyone else.
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September 7th, 2017, 03:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
All the top riders got tires based of data taken from Burgess. If you could ride tires based on Rossi preference, you were good to go, if not, you were screwed..
Evidence?
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September 7th, 2017, 03:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
So only the drawing of pro-Rossi inferences, or the drawing of inferences by him, are valid?
There's an obvious distinction between blind hate and criticism of Rossi. No need to overreach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Those in the pro-Rossi camp seem to have very different standards of proof depending on circumstances and influenced by their own allegiance themselves.
Sure. Which is why fanboys are difficult to deal with.

Hayden (RIP) was always my favourite rider, for the record.

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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am on record on the SNS tire era as agreeing with J4rn0's view that Rossi only got the advantages other top riders before him such as Doohan accrued as a result of his and their pre-eminent status. I don't think it requires much in the way of conspiracy theorising to suggest he had a major influence on the characteristics of the SNS tire that was actually produced each time though, which were not 6 different tires as I understand it, as Colin Edwards who might be in a position to know has actually said, although I do recall talk that he was unhappy towards the end of the era that Honda were having too much influence on Michelin and the SNS tires were starting to favor HRC, although not in that race Toni Elias won in 2006 it would seem.
Toni apparently got Dani's tyres (both light guys, obviously).

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
As I said in the post you just 'liked', one would think Max Biaggi, not unkown for complaining, might have had more to say if the SNS tires were 'fixed', but the tires may largely have suited him as well as JPS said immediately after that post, and even Max might have had enough discretion not to want to offend Michelin who have a record of intolerance of complaint by riders whom they supply cf Wayne Rainey as Birdman can detail. In any case he won the first 5 titles, and the 2 subsequent titles because he was the best rider those years; it was complaint from his fans in regard to rival riders having 'advantages' with which I took issue.
Agree - I can't fault that reasoning.

I should add that, generally, it makes sense to follow the input of the fastest rider.


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I believe it is basically impossible to produce a tire that will make a 38 year old rider win a world championship against current opposition, or to produce a tire which benefits him and no-one else, which is why I don't go for full-on conspiracy theories in that regard.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I have very little doubt that Dorna have manipulated the tires over the years to the disadvantage of less popular/unpopular rivals of Rossi however.
It's ultimately conjecture - but I'd change my mind if I had some sort of evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Btw, you acknowledge but then seemingly dismiss (? why exactly) that Bridgestone wished to continue with the status quo in 2008/2009, and I would be interested to see your evidence that Honda, Yamaha and Ducati, or Michelin and Bridgestone themselves, who would seem to have been the major interested parties, wanted a control tyre rule.
Sure - I recall that once Bridgestone became stronger, almost every rider was pining for Bridgestones. Obviously, Valentino and Dani got these tyres before their teammates.

Once the ship was sinking and everyone had sought Bridgestones, Michelin needed a minimum number of riders to continue its commitment to the championship. Famously, Ducati tried to switch allegiances to Michelin for 2009, publicly acknowledging that it was likely to lose any arms race against the Japanese. However, even with Ducati's wild gambit, Michelin were ultimately one bike short of the numbers they needed to justify the investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Bottom line is that Dorna's focus is still much more on a 38 year old rider who hasn't won a title since 2009 than anyone else, however, and I believe anyone totally naive to GP bike racing who watched the Dorna coverage led by one Nick Harris wouldn't have much trouble drawing that inference. That rider raised with impunity (pretty much with Carmelo's tacit support imo) a wild conspiracy theory, it would appear to their irretrievable detriment, against two riders who are in all likelihood top 10 riders all time themselves, including the ludicrous proposition that one of those riders tanked a race he actually won. I haven't seen much in the way of complaint in regard to him having no evidence from Rossi partisans, and in fact those riders continue to be derided/booed etc by said partisans. As I have said, and Povol similarly, it is the events of 2015 which have led me to a personal dislike of Rossi, rather than just of an element among his fans as was previously the case.
There's very little anyone could argue with there. I think Rossi's Phillip Island 2015 claim is very unlikely, though the only thing that stops me from calling it delusional is Rossi's confrontation with Alzamora after the race. I thought eyewitnesses related that Alzamora conceded that Marquez's alleged conduct arose from his anger about the Argentina clash (but I doubt the credibility of that story).

I actually thought MM was helping Rossi at PI when I watched the race. It seemed like with two or three laps to the end, he signaled for Rossi to sit on his tail and follow him through?

Last edited by RCV600RR; September 7th, 2017 at 03:43 PM.
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September 7th, 2017, 06:17 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCV600RR View Post
There's an obvious distinction between blind hate and criticism of Rossi. No need to overreach.


Sure. Which is why fanboys are difficult to deal with.

Hayden (RIP) was always my favourite rider, for the record.


Toni apparently got Dani's tyres (both light guys, obviously).



Agree - I can't fault that reasoning.

I should add that, generally, it makes sense to follow the input of the fastest rider.



Agree.


It's ultimately conjecture - but I'd change my mind if I had some sort of evidence.


Sure - I recall that once Bridgestone became stronger, almost every rider was pining for Bridgestones. Obviously, Valentino and Dani got these tyres before their teammates.

Once the ship was sinking and everyone had sought Bridgestones, Michelin needed a minimum number of riders to continue its commitment to the championship. Famously, Ducati tried to switch allegiances to Michelin for 2009, publicly acknowledging that it was likely to lose any arms race against the Japanese. However, even with Ducati's wild gambit, Michelin were ultimately one bike short of the numbers they needed to justify the investment.


There's very little anyone could argue with there. I think Rossi's Phillip Island 2015 claim is very unlikely, though the only thing that stops me from calling it delusional is Rossi's confrontation with Alzamora after the race. I thought eyewitnesses related that Alzamora conceded that Marquez's alleged conduct arose from his anger about the Argentina clash (but I doubt the credibility of that story).

I actually thought MM was helping Rossi at PI when I watched the race. It seemed like with two or three laps to the end, he signaled for Rossi to sit on his tail and follow him through?
Sure, I can't argue with most of your counterpoints either.

I admit to being biased as a Stoner fan, and to a lesser extent Hayden and Lorenzo fan, and my basic issue has been with those riders and others being pretty much persecuted and derided to a greater or lesser extent, and having formerly blamed only the extreme Rossi fanboy element for all that after 2015 I now regard Rossi as quite complicit.

Sure, it is natural in the SNS era that they went with the strongest rider's input, as I said and you agreed I see him as only having had the advantages which had accrued to his predecessors as top rider, but it annoyed me in the face of this that his extreme fanboys complained about others such as Stoner having advantages including Stoner getting a tyre, developed for Ducati in keeping within the then avowed 'development' objective of the sport, which suited him.

I agree it is conjecture that tyres which suited Stoner and Honda being withdrawn, despite objections by them to the replacement tyre which were subsequently validated, was to disadvantage them, but it is not perhaps drawing a very long bow, particularly given I have a clear memory of Rossi saying that he voted against the Stoner tyre in regard to the second and midseason tyre change because he thought it would disadvantage Stoner; I don't intend to imply collusion by Rossi with Dorna, just that it indicates this is a feasible motive for wanting a tyre change.
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