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May 22nd, 2017, 03:37 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
Ah, conspiracies, conspiracies...

Just for the record: Michelin have to satisfy the top Manufacturers first, notably Honda and Yamaha. The French know this very well, they've done it for many years, always satisfying both. All those who know (and are honest) know perfectly well that even the famous SNS were given to both Honda and Yamaha factory teams; they were not designed for a specific rider (the very idea of designing a tire for a specific rider doesn't make sense, but we keep hearing such things!).

Of course among the types of tire that work well with a certain bike, riders will have their preferences, but that's secondary and riders usually can adjust within that range.

We have just seen that neither Rossi nor Vinales could perform in Jerez, for some (not yet clarified) tire-related reason; whereas both performed beautifully on the 006 tire at Le Mans, and you bet they will both perform as well on the 070 tire, -- why? Because both of these tires can suit the Yamaha M1, and that's what matters: the bike-tire synergy. If tehre is that synergy, riders can always adjust.

Bridgestone created havoc because they were outsiders, who developed a great tire working with another outsider (Ducati), causing the top riders of Yamaha and Honda to oblige their employers to break their allegiance to Michelin and get the superior Bridgestones.

Then Bridgestones promptly forgot Ducati and got busy working with Hnda and Yamaha, just as Michelin used to do (and do now). Honda twisted the regulations as they always do, to effectively neutralize Ducati, and then took Stoner. Ah! That's history.

Now Honda men have said that the Michelin 070 works better with their bike than the 006, a majority of riders voted for the 070, but for some it's all a Rossi conspiracy.
Yawn.
As you yourself said (I think) in a previous post, let the riders have their individual choice.

I have absolutely no problem with the #70 tyre being brought back as long as the riders whom the other tyre suits are allowed to continue with the tyre they tested with and started the season with.

Just as in 2012, what was the necessity for a vote?
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May 22nd, 2017, 03:47 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post

Just for the record: Michelin have to satisfy the top Manufacturers first, notably Honda and Yamaha. The French know this very well, they've done it for many years, always satisfying both. All those who know (and are honest) know perfectly well that even the famous SNS were given to both Honda and Yamaha factory teams; they were not designed for a specific rider (the very idea of designing a tire for a specific rider doesn't make sense, but we keep hearing such things!).
When a truck pulled up at the gates of a European Circuit on a Sunday morning containing a modified and tailored consignment it was indeed available for both Honda and Yamaha and their factory riders. But are you seriously suggesting that for the sake of argument in 2002, what was beneficial to the Valentino and the RC211v was also equally a response to the preferences of Toruh Ukawa whilst simultaneously catering for Max Biaggi and Carlos Checa on the M1 screamer? Whose feedback do you suppose was directing these bespoke tweaks? - and how can an SNS possibly benefit all riding styles and all machinery? I understand that a tyre manufacturer can overnight respond to such variables as the weather, or grip and the range of parameters that this can introduce but a motorcycle will feel very different according to its design and the riding style. Did they synthesise the differing and disparate requests to magically formulate a 'one size fits all' range of compound? You appear to think so. Where do you think most of the direction of these adjustments originated from? - or let me put it this way, whose feedback prevailed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
Of course among the types of tire that work well with a certain bike, riders will have their preferences, but that's secondary and riders usually can adjust within that range.
Just to clarify. A one off tyre magically conjured up on a Sunday morning that everyone can adjust to. If you say so.

- JB's proverbial 'rabbit out of his arse' suddenly makes even more sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
We have just seen that neither Rossi nor Vinales could perform in Jerez, for some (not yet clarified) tire-related reason; whereas both performed beautifully on the 006 tire at Le Mans, and you bet they will both perform as well on the 070 tire, -- why? Because both of these tires can suit the Yamaha M1, and that's what matters: the bike-tire synergy. If there is that synergy, riders can always adjust.
That may well be true. But the point you are missing is that MV was not in favour of the #70 and had adapted superbly to the 06, blitzing pre-season testing in the process. Moreover, the very reintroduction of a tyre that had been near unanimously rejected was originally lobbied by one very, very powerful influence in the paddock. And to think, this absurd talk of Viñales being in Márquez's head - Ha! Had the reintroduction of the #70 been at Crutchlow's or even Marc's sole request do you really think that it would have been entertained, far less gathered such momentum?

You have a short memory J4Rn0. Remember how screwed McCoy ended up over the 16.5" profile because of rider consensus.

This season, what began as the preference of one rider has snowballed into tactical voting on behalf of not all - but the majority while riders such as Crutchlow and Márquez who will undoubtedly benefit from the change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
Now Honda men have said that the Michelin 070 works better with their bike than the 006, a majority of riders voted for the 070, but for some it's all a Rossi conspiracy.
Yawn.
Not to me it isn't.

Doubtless the #70 will work better for some Honda riders and favour their style - (I must add, that I was very surprised that Pedrosa wasn't amongst the three). It is very likely that it will also be beneficial to the development of the RCV. No conspiracy here - just simply that a new tyre should not be introduced into a season unless there is evidence that the current carcass/profile is unsafe. No matter how this is dressed up, safety was not the reason for the reevaluation of the #70. It was reconsidered because one rider and his crew who were the only ones to express a preference for it preseason, vehemently petitioned for it because it massively benefits that riders style. This was initially greeted by uncertainty and ambivalence throughout the rest of the grid, followed by a growing realisation that it may not only yield some benefits over the current carcass but more significantly, there is the chance that it could neutralise the most potent package in the paddock.

That 20 riders voted for the #70 is neither here nor there imo. That the tyre was even reconsidered and then reintroduced was eventuated by one riders preferences - and when we speak in terms of the old SNS, similarly they may have been available to the top factory riders - but in response to whose preferences? - whilst eliminating virtually all competition form satellite/customer machinery.

Another enforced in season tyre change to the detriment of one potential competitor and a championship protagonist. It doesn't matter what transpires, what does matter is irrespective on your view on this, the way that the sport is prone to manipulation and lobbying in accordance with vested interests. I don't care about logistics and cost, if this is the way it is then 06 compound should at least be available until the end of the season.

"But...but...the vote - in the end it was almost unanimous"

Vote? Hypothetically, if the 06 had favoured Valentino do you even think it would have got that far?

Last edited by Arrabbiata1; May 22nd, 2017 at 03:51 AM.
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May 22nd, 2017, 04:08 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
When a truck pulled up at the gates of a European Circuit on a Sunday morning containing a modified and tailored consignment it was indeed available for both Honda and Yamaha and their factory riders. But are you seriously suggesting that for the sake of argument in 2002, what was beneficial to the Valentino and the RC211v was also equally a response to the preferences of Toruh Ukawa whilst simultaneously catering for Max Biaggi and Carlos Checa on the M1 screamer? Whose feedback do you suppose was directing these bespoke tweaks? - and how can an SNS possibly benefit all riding styles and all machinery? I understand that a tyre manufacturer can overnight respond to such variables as the weather, or grip and the range of parameters that this can introduce but a motorcycle will feel very different according to its design and the riding style. Did they synthesise the differing and disparate requests to magically formulate a 'one size fits all' range of compound? You appear to think so. Where do you think most of the direction of these adjustments originated from? - or let me put it this way, whose feedback prevailed?



Just to clarify. A one off tyre magically conjured up on a Sunday morning that everyone can adjust to. If you say so.

- JB's proverbial 'rabbit out of his arse' suddenly makes even more sense.




That may well be true. But the point you are missing is that MV was not in favour of the #70 and had adapted superbly to the 06, blitzing pre-season testing in the process. Moreover, the very reintroduction of a tyre that had been near unanimously rejected was originally lobbied by one very, very powerful influence in the paddock. And to think, this absurd talk of Viñales being in Márquez's head - Ha! Had the reintroduction of the #70 been at Crutchlow's or even Marc's sole request do you really think that it would have been entertained, far less gathered such momentum?

You have a short memory J4Rn0. Remember how screwed McCoy ended up over the 16.5" profile because of rider consensus.

This season, what began as the preference of one rider has snowballed into tactical voting on behalf of not all - but the majority while riders such as Crutchlow and Márquez who will undoubtedly benefit from the change.



Not to me it isn't.

Doubtless the #70 will work better for some Honda riders and favour their style - (I must add, that I was very surprised that Pedrosa wasn't amongst the three). It is very likely that it will also be beneficial to the development of the RCV. No conspiracy here - just simply that a new tyre should not be introduced into a season unless there is evidence that the current carcass/profile is unsafe. No matter how this is dressed up, safety was not the reason for the reevaluation of the #70. It was reconsidered because one rider and his crew who were the only ones to express a preference for it preseason, vehemently petitioned for it because it massively benefits that riders style. This was initially greeted by uncertainty and ambivalence throughout the rest of the grid, followed by a growing realisation that it may not only yield some benefits over the current carcass but more significantly, there is the chance that it could neutralise the most potent package in the paddock.

That 20 riders voted for the #70 is neither here nor there imo. That the tyre was even reconsidered and then reintroduced was eventuated by one riders preferences - and when we speak in terms of the old SNS, similarly they may have been available to the top factory riders - but in response to whose preferences? - whilst eliminating virtually all competition form satellite/customer machinery.

Another enforced in season tyre change to the detriment of one potential competitor and a championship protagonist. It doesn't matter what transpires, what does matter is irrespective on your view on this, the way that the sport is prone to manipulation and lobbying in accordance with vested interests. I don't care about logistics and cost, if this is the way it is then 06 compound should at least be available until the end of the season.

"But...but...the vote - in the end it was almost unanimous"

Vote? Hypothetically, if the 06 had favoured Valentino do you even think it would have got that far?
I don't believe for a moment that bringing the current/soon to be "old" tyre for 3 riders for the remainder of the season would break Michelin, who were happy to ship/fly/whatever the old "old " tyre to the USA from Clermont Ferrand just for "testing".

If this is the case however, if the riders who freely made a choice pre-season which they now consider to be "wrong" really need and want a change, have their teams subsidise the guys who have made the tyre they were given work; take it out of their Dorna grant or whatever, they can exempt Valentino who wanted the other tyre from the get-go if they like.
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May 22nd, 2017, 04:18 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
That 20 riders voted for the #70 is neither here nor there imo. That the tyre was even reconsidered and then reintroduced was eventuated by one riders preferences - and when we speak in terms of the old SNS, similarly they may have been available to the top factory riders - but in response to whose preferences? - whilst eliminating virtually all competition form satellite/customer machinery.

Another enforced in season tyre change to the detriment of one potential competitor and a championship protagonist. It doesn't matter what transpires, what does matter is irrespective on your view on this, the way that the sport is prone to manipulation and lobbying in accordance with vested interests. I don't care about logistics and cost, if this is the way it is then 06 compound should at least be available until the end of the season.

"But...but...the vote - in the end it was almost unanimous"

Rossi might be reasonably competitive, but IMO he's yesterdays man, take for example the crash yesterday it was in my eye's a Crutchlow/Miller/Asparagus crash, pushing to hard to late, he might be 38 but he was thinking like a 10 year old school playground bully. He got his just desserts.

Vote? Hypothetically, if the 06 had favoured Valentino do you even think it would have got that far?
He fell off acting like an idiot, hopefully thats the end of his title challenge, bye bye yesterdays man.
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May 22nd, 2017, 04:25 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
When a truck pulled up at the gates of a European Circuit on a Sunday morning containing a modified and tailored consignment it was indeed available for both Honda and Yamaha and their factory riders. But are you seriously suggesting that for the sake of argument in 2002, what was beneficial to the Valentino and the RC211v was also equally a response to the preferences of Toruh Ukawa whilst simultaneously catering for Max Biaggi and Carlos Checa on the M1 screamer? Whose feedback do you suppose was directing these bespoke tweaks? - and how can an SNS possibly benefit all riding styles and all machinery? I understand that a tyre manufacturer can overnight respond to such variables as the weather, or grip and the range of parameters that this can introduce but a motorcycle will feel very different according to its design and the riding style. Did they synthesise the differing and disparate requests to magically formulate a 'one size fits all' range of compound? You appear to think so. Where do you think most of the direction of these adjustments originated from? - or let me put it this way, whose feedback prevailed? .................
I think you've pretty much answered yourself there. The tire design was done to suit the main Manufacturers and surely could not be changed overnight; all that could be taken into account overnight was, in your words: "weather, or grip and the range of parameters that this can introduce". Building a tire to suit personal riding styles? No way, and I know that you know that very well.
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May 22nd, 2017, 04:35 AM   #86
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He fell off acting like an idiot, hopefully thats the end of his title challenge, bye bye yesterdays man.
I don't think his title challenge is remotely over.

A set back to be sure, but the tire change may be enough to change Vinales' fortunes from Mugello onward...and not for the better.
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May 22nd, 2017, 04:45 AM   #87
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He fell off acting like an idiot, hopefully thats the end of his title challenge, bye bye yesterdays man.
Now that's how a real 13 years old sportsman speaks!
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May 22nd, 2017, 05:11 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by J4rn0 View Post
I think you've pretty much answered yourself there. The tire design was done to suit the main Manufacturers and surely could not be changed overnight; all that could be taken into account overnight was, in your words: "weather, or grip and the range of parameters that this can introduce". Building a tire to suit personal riding styles? No way, and I know that you know that very well.
I think you misunderstood my post. Point being that although it can respond to an unanticipated change in variables - no it could not suit a range of personal riding styles but it can lean towards and accommodate feedback from one in particular - very easily. Minor tweaks can make a huge difference in a race.

Let me ask you again. SNS were available irrespective of any major change to conditions or shifting variables. Carlos Checa was a factory rider on the M1 screamer, Valentino was a factory rider on the V5 RC211v. Who do you suppose they listened to when it came to the provision of these race day one offs?

Inserts prescriptive smug emojis...
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May 22nd, 2017, 05:51 AM   #89
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I don't believe for a moment that bringing the current/soon to be "old" tyre for 3 riders for the remainder of the season would break Michelin, who were happy to ship/fly/whatever the old "old " tyre to the USA from Clermont Ferrand just for "testing".

If this is the case however, if the riders who freely made a choice pre-season which they now consider to be "wrong" really need and want a change, have their teams subsidise the guys who have made the tyre they were given work; take it out of their Dorna grant or whatever, they can exempt Valentino who wanted the other tyre from the get-go if they like.
To be fair, the continued availability of the 06 was an option but the riders vote went against that too. Perhaps, as has been previously mentioned, because this was only for 'one or two races' it was deemed farcical. As opposed to continuing to eke out any advantage from a familiar tyre best to crack on with the new one and yield as much track time and data as possible without a soon to be discontinued carcass cluttering up the container. Also, better to immediately remove whatever perceived advantage the current tyre may be offering Viñales and Lorenzo.

Goubert...

"In Austin we mentioned the different possibilities available to go forward if the other [stiffer] tyre was selected," Michelin's Nicolas Goubert explained at Le Mans on Saturday.

"The riders discussed between them and said once a decision is made [on which front tyre] they would be happier to have everything in one type of tyre. So it was good to double-check [yesterday], because sometimes they change their mind - and they are allowed to! - but they confirmed what they had said at the beginning."
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May 22nd, 2017, 06:00 AM   #90
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I don't think his title challenge is remotely over.

A set back to be sure, but the tire change may be enough to change Vinales' fortunes from Mugello onward...and not for the better.
Well he didn't win last year did he. I think Maverick will be ok with the 70 tyre after all its designed for the bike isn't it.
No I'll stand by what I said Rossi is yesterdays man and I bet he know's it.
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