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May 21st, 2017, 12:23 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
J4, with due respect...

This is a thinly 'Val'd attempt at suggesting Marquez is far more MachiaVALlian than Rossi. Because...Marc turned up with doctored papers in hand to prove the wily young faux had helped Lorenzo at Phillip Island by...taking points away from Jorge. Ah yes, Marc, that real crafty genius that deceitful 'smiling' lad. Surely Marc faked those fan pics of VR in his bedroom as an alibi many years into the future.

Rossi admitted in the past to misdirection in tire preference to thwart his rivals-FACT. Misdirection, a skill used by magicians to fool people. You may perceive Rossi's misdirection as a fantastic coup that he pulled off, but I ask you a serious question: do you see that by knowingly using his considerable influence to pick an inferior tire that he put less experienced fellow competitors in danger? You probably have never looked at it in these terms. Probably many reading this post have not considered the unintended subtle consequences and real potential in Rossi’s decision to pick an inferior tire because he made the decision based on a Machiavellian scheme.
To be fair, I don't think Rossi actually realised that Stoner was genuine (and as it eventuated correct) about the new tyre being substandard and deliberately foisted a substandard tyre on the field, but rather assumed Stoner was playing political games for his own advantage as is Rossi's own wont, and voted to disadvantage Stoner when the decision was fairly neutral for him.

Karma probably worked as the estimable Birdman has said, given I am sure the tyre voted down would have been useful for Valentino in 2013 when he got back on a Yamaha, and the tyre he voted for delaminated on him at a subsequent race.
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May 21st, 2017, 12:35 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I don't because it screws Vinales for being better at utilising the tyre they mostly all voted for the first time, pre-season.


Have both tyres available for the rest of the season unless there is a genuine safety issue is the only fair thing imo as I and others have said. I have no problem with the new construction tyre being the choice for next season as a result of a pre-season majority decision, but not after a season has started when a contending rider has proven more proficient at utilising the existing tyre.

If you want a series where they handicap bikes as the season progresses like WSBK prior to DORNA buying that series fine, but that is not my idea of premier class gp bike racing, and handicapping riders/riding styles is even more malodorous, again imo.
we're talking on different subject, Mike. I said, "70" tyre vote is fair. I'm pissed when Oxley can dodge every single argument on twitter, and made Rossi look like has made a fair competition through out his career.

On the other hand, I agree 100% that is wrong decision to switch tyre in mid season, unless there were safety issues. All I know is this regarding performance issue by Valentino Rossi in preseason, and MADE michelin to consider a tyre switch in mid season.

I think it comes down to "How much power VR had in the series" topic. He can do whatever he want, he get what he want, its an unfair advantage he had relative to other riders, but it is not cheating. (from kropo's post, long time ago).
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May 21st, 2017, 12:42 AM   #43
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I hadn't realised Vinales was a dissenter. That makes it more like the 2012 vote, because JL is already not a contender for the title this year, while Vinales obviously very much is.
....

Whether or not Dorna were trying to finagle the season outcome this time, it is fairly obvious that tyre votes such as this and the one in 2012 are at least a possible mechanism for doing so.
It IS the mechanism for doing so. This "vote" serves the same purpose for Viñalez as it did for Lorenzo when both, teammates to Rossi, threatened to make the title chase end 'too soon'. See the inadvertently reported impetus for redeveloping the tire, which was: the tire needed to change 'because' the title was wrapped up too soon last year. Yes, a real crime, and I shall add, a "safety" concern. We can't have a title being wrapped up too soon, we need another engineered 'grand finale'! Well actually, we don't really need a grand finale, we just need VR to win it. Neutralizing Viñalez has become priority #70. (It may or may not work. But it doesn't stop them from trying.)

I might as well add, Honda's greatest challenge these last two years is first and foremost the Michelin tire being designed for the M1. It's not a linear prospect, though I'm sure that's very much the desire. When Honda wins, like they unexpectedly did at Jerez, you can thank the complexity of tire development that's being actively modified with a desired effect. They're not always going to get it just right for Rossi, almost perfect has yielded almost good enough, but they're trying.



"On one side were those who saw Michelin's decision to casually bring a front tire that matched Rossi’s demands as a move favoring the immensely popular nine-time world champion. Those same people explained that it wasn’t a well-known front tire, and he "ALREADY HAS ENOUGH HERE TO DO WHAT HE WANTS.”" SportRider April 10, 2017.

Last edited by Jumkie; May 21st, 2017 at 12:44 AM.
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May 21st, 2017, 12:51 AM   #44
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This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
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May 21st, 2017, 12:57 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post

If you want a series where they handicap bikes as the season progresses like WSBK prior to DORNA buying that series fine, but that is not my idea of premier class gp bike racing, and handicapping riders/riding styles is even more malodorous, again imo.
Uhm...you may want to revisit the "factory with concessions" class, "open class", and the short lived "factory 2" class. Performance handicapping is very much utilized in GP.

Though at very least the above handicapping is done by the virtues of a dignified rolling rule book, I take your point for which I agree, that moving the Michelin goal post does the same.
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May 21st, 2017, 01:03 AM   #46
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This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
Rossi colluded with the Russians to make sure 20 other riders Rossi-subservient riders, including Marquez, all voted for tyre #70...Perfectly plausible...isn't it?


What i cant wait to see if Stoner at the Barcelona test being on the top 3 if not top on the GP17 with the #70 tyre....but that can't happen can it its a Rossi M1 only tyre...right?
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May 21st, 2017, 01:06 AM   #47
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This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
I forgot....JLo will be saying its God giving Stoner a boost cause he deserves it....not because of his talent...
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May 21st, 2017, 01:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
To be fair, I don't think Rossi actually realised that Stoner was genuine (and as it eventuated correct) about the new tyre being substandard and deliberately foisted a substandard tyre on the field, but rather assumed Stoner was playing political games for his own advantage as is Rossi's own wont, and voted to disadvantage Stoner when the decision was fairly neutral for him.

Karma probably worked as the estimable Birdman has said, given I am sure the tyre voted down would have been useful for Valentino in 2013 when he got back on a Yamaha, and the tyre he voted for delaminated on him at a subsequent race.
So you propose that Rossi didn’t think Stoner was being honest about an inferior tire on the grounds of safety, therefore chose to promote said tire by dishonestly throwing his considerable influence in favor of it? And you propose this to be fair to Rossi as a case for his honest mistake in backing an unsafe tire?
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May 21st, 2017, 01:19 AM   #49
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There was a comment attributed to Lorenzo I saw somewhere (will see if I can find it again) where he states (and I am paraphrasing from memory) 'it seems like the powerful riders got their way again'.

So it isn't just here that feels conspiracy
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May 21st, 2017, 01:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by danski View Post
This is the only place that a 20/3 a/b choice majority vote could be interpreted as 'done for Rossi'
Not at all.

I said that firstly it was unfair to Vinales, and secondly that it was unfair to have a vote in the first place to change tyre construction mid season when it disadvantages a leading contender who had used that tyre better than others who actually voted for said tyre previously.

Provide both tyres for the rest of the season, then I have no problem. How exactly is that biased or a conspiracy theory?

This is worse than 2012 imo, except for Stoner being correct in advance about the tyre being foisted on Honda and him being defective in that instance. At least then it was a pre-season thing with a period of grace/"evaluation", although about the 3rd attempt by good old Loris at a tyre on which Stoner was not too fast for the rest of the field.

Last edited by michaelm; May 21st, 2017 at 04:38 AM.
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