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April 3rd, 2017, 07:46 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Like I said, my feeling based on comments made is that to get the most out of the SNS tires, you had to ride them a certain way to turn them on. Doesn't mean no one else could ride them including Biaggi. It's the sort of thing you wouldn't really know about max potential ceiling if you believe you are riding on the limit. Michelin made a a race tire in 2005 and 2006 for Renault that only Fernando Alonso could get the most out of. Other Michelin runners could be fast on them on a given weekend, but not every weekend. Alonso was fast every weekend. His driving style perfectly suited the tires, and he could activate their characteristics consistently. I made a post about this awhile back that pretty much went ignored around here.
Sure, I am not arguing that the tyres didn't suit Rossi, just that the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau probably also were provided with tyres that suited them fairly well. I would not be surprised given the general run of things if the SNS tyres were made only to Rossi's prescription, but I don't believe that is proven fact, partly because Max and Sete never complained, whether because Valentino's tyres worked for them anyway or due to there being some variety in the Michelin SNS tyres, (EDIT and also because SNS tyres were an established thing well before Rossi, also with no complaints about them as far as I am aware from the riders provided with them back then, if not from those who were not). I need no convincing that Michelin were uninterested in producing SNS tyres which suited Colin Edwards.

The whole thing was so shrouded in secrecy that JKant would likely say after exhaustive research that SNS tyres never existed, there being not much in the way of Dorna press releases (apart from the notice which discontinued them) concerning them and precious little else at 10 years remove.

Last edited by michaelm; April 3rd, 2017 at 08:50 AM.
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April 3rd, 2017, 08:44 AM   #12
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Sure, I am not arguing that the tyres didn't suit Rossi, just that the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau probably also were provided with tyres that suited them fairly well. I would not be surprised given the general run of things if the SNS tyres were made only to Rossi's prescription, but I don't believe that is proven fact, partly because Max and Sete never complained, whether because Valentino's tyres worked for them anyway or due to there being some variety in the Michelin SNS tyres. I need no convincing that Michelin were uninterested in producing SNS tyres which suited Colin Edwards.

The whole thing was so shrouded in secrecy that JKant would likely say after exhaustive research that SNS tyres never existed, there being not much in the way of Dorna press releases (apart from the notice which discontinued them) concerning them and precious little else at 10 years remove.
Indeed. It's definitely speculation on my part about to what degree the Michelin SNS tires were made to suit Rossi. But given that Pedrosa didn't use the tires at Estoril since he couldn't get them to work, choosing instead to give them to Toni Elias confirms my suspicion that the tires were in fact being made with narrower parameters than has ever really been reported on. You had to be able to activate them by riding them in a specific way that not everyone could do. Gibernau and Biaggi may have been getting tires that took into account some of their preferences, but I never got the feeling there was any true investment into making tires for them, the way seemed to be the case with Rossi.

The SNS's have become a dirty secret in MotoGP even after over a decade since their removal. I feel there is a reason no one in a position to do so goes down that hole as it would probably expose some serious flaws in how GP racing was being conducted in the earlier to middle part of the prior decade. Dorna isn't going to want that closet door opened ever no matter how far removed we are from those days.

Last edited by JPSLotus; April 3rd, 2017 at 08:47 AM.
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April 3rd, 2017, 11:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
... Michelin hierarchical system of tyre supply was obviously grossly inequitable and unfair by any standard...
You accept this inequitable and unfair tire system, but then suggested perhaps it wasn't so bad because Biaggi and Sete failed to openly complain? Why might someone not want to openly complain about getting inferior tires during an instituted tier system?

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but I can't help but think as I have said previously that if Max Biaggi had a problem with the SNS tyres we just might have heard about it.
I'm reminded of the adverse reaction from the establishment one might endured by pointing out the inequitable and unfair tire tier system. The audacity! In fact, I could argue this point was the parturition, the starting point, that ultimately led to CS's shortened career in GP, that being in direct conflict to the designs of Carmelocalm. Competing against rival on the track is hard enough, competing against the League is damn near impossible. Pile on a media sympathetic to advancing the vilian's narrative against the hero that the overwhelming consumers of said media cater to (see recent pictures posted by Arrabi).

What do Biaggi, Sete, Stoner, Lorenzo have in common?

Make no mistake, those SNS were provided to others, but they were Rossi specs. If you can't make them work, to whom would one make a complaint to publicly? Pedrosa certainly didn't, and he wielded significant power in Puig to do so, but rather instead of public complaint, he simply discarded what was to him unusable, and by happenstance it became public, and as they say, the rest is history.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
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Last edited by Jumkie; April 3rd, 2017 at 11:23 AM.
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April 3rd, 2017, 02:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
You accept this inequitable and unfair tire system, but then suggested perhaps it wasn't so bad because Biaggi and Sete failed to openly complain? Why might someone not want to openly complain about getting inferior tires during an instituted tier system?



I'm reminded of the adverse reaction from the establishment one might endured by pointing out the inequitable and unfair tire tier system. The audacity! In fact, I could argue this point was the parturition, the starting point, that ultimately led to CS's shortened career in GP, that being in direct conflict to the designs of Carmelocalm. Competing against rival on the track is hard enough, competing against the League is damn near impossible. Pile on a media sympathetic to advancing the vilian's narrative against the hero that the overwhelming consumers of said media cater to (see recent pictures posted by Arrabi).

What do Biaggi, Sete, Stoner, Lorenzo have in common?

Make no mistake, those SNS were provided to others, but they were Rossi specs. If you can't make them work, to whom would one make a complaint to publicly? Pedrosa certainly didn't, and he wielded significant power in Puig to do so, but rather instead of public complaint, he simply discarded what was to him unusable, and by happenstance it became public, and as they say, the rest is history.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
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April 3rd, 2017, 03:02 PM   #15
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I remember an interview with Dani and a few other top riders after '07 season when it was announced Rossi was going to switch and all were happy that they could now have more input into the tyres and have them softer as none of them liked the tyres as hard as Rossi did.
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April 3rd, 2017, 03:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
I remember an interview with Dani and a few other top riders after '07 season when it was announced Rossi was going to switch and all were happy that they could now have more input into the tyres and have them softer as none of them liked the tyres as hard as Rossi did.
I thought you started watching in 2013? Or so you said.
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April 3rd, 2017, 04:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
I thought you started watching in 2013? Or so you said.
There's a thing called internet video Dani. It allows you to view recorded motion images from the past. Youtube is a great example of this, as is, believe it or not, MotoGP's very own website.

I'm sure you find internet video handy when you need to find more German Shepherd breeding videos to jerk off to.
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April 3rd, 2017, 06:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Sure, I am not arguing that the tyres didn't suit Rossi, just that the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau probably also were provided with tyres that suited them fairly well. I would not be surprised given the general run of things if the SNS tyres were made only to Rossi's prescription, but I don't believe that is proven fact, partly because Max and Sete never complained, whether because Valentino's tyres worked for them anyway or due to there being some variety in the Michelin SNS tyres, (EDIT and also because SNS tyres were an established thing well before Rossi, also with no complaints about them as far as I am aware from the riders provided with them back then, if not from those who were not). I need no convincing that Michelin were uninterested in producing SNS tyres which suited Colin Edwards.

The whole thing was so shrouded in secrecy that JKant would likely say after exhaustive research that SNS tyres never existed, there being not much in the way of Dorna press releases (apart from the notice which discontinued them) concerning them and precious little else at 10 years remove.
There were a lot of complaints from both riders and teams about the tier tire system which included SNS. But it was mostly coming from the have nots and it most certainly was not done publicly or else they would end up in Michelins little black book. Eventually though these complaints wore Carmelocalm down and this is the reason SNS was banned.

As Jumkie points out the 'haves' such as Biaggi and Gibberplow would be crazy to complain about receiving SNS regardless which rider/s data was being used to produce them, due to the alternative not being particularly attractive: B or if you were really pissing Michelin off even down to C spec. Stoner famously managed to piss Michelin off with his lack of political sensitivity and after running with the leaders during practice of one particular GP, he was promptly demoted on race day to tires he claims were fried after 3 laps.

Imo the worst years of motogp/500cc have been due to the Michelin monopoly. Unfortunately this included Doohans title run, compared to my personal 500cc holy grail of season of 1991 it wasn't as interesting or unpredictable. Late 80's/early 90's Dunlop were competitive and we had good racing. Michelin had less time to extort money from teams and had to concentrate more on beating Dunlop. Rainey says in his book he preferred being an underdog on Dunlop, he and team Roberts were generally a bit of a 'fuck you' to the establishment. When Rainey did run Michelin, I think due to talk Dunlop were pulling out, they gave him a tire and he ran his first laps 2 seconds off the pace. Not being shy he went straight to Michelin, as the raining champ he knew he wasn't 2 seconds slower, and more or less exclaimed wtf. Michelin nodded suppressing a smirk and said ok Mr Rainey give these a try. He promptly set the fastest lap. What the whole process was Rainey didn't elaborate but I take it as a warning from Michelin to smile on the podium in you're blue hat and thank Michelin after every race or else.

I don't know when the SNS era came in exactly, but I do remember riders prior to SNS saying due to the narrow band Michelins tend to operate in they would bring truckloads of tires to every race and riders, even the fortunate ones would spend all of practice sometimes right up to raceday running through the options hoping to find the magic bullet. SNS was thus mostly introduced by Michelin as a cost saving measure, initially they weren't really made for any one specific rider that I'm aware of. What I do know is that while a young Rossi was enjoying his SNS, one Garry McCoy was doing the guinea pig/donkey work running a new 16.5 inch tire the top runners had already rejected. McCoy eventually got them to suit his style and even managed to win a couple of races. I'm sure you are aware what happened next, in a nutshell it is the reason Ive always seen Michelin as bad for the sport in the same way Carmelocash $$$$$ is.

After putting up with this crap from Michelin for years and finally getting a decent alternative supplier in Bridgestone it doesnt surprise me in the slightest the likes of Kawasaki, Suzuki, Gresini wasted no time in getting out. I wouldn't blame Rossi for any of this. No doubt he's done a job looking out for himself, his mates at Dorna and Michelin riding piggyback lining their pockets were the problem. At the end of the day the control tire is a better compromise than the Michelin monopoly.
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April 3rd, 2017, 07:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
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There were a lot of complaints from both riders and teams about the tier tire system which included SNS. But it was mostly coming from the have nots and it most certainly was not done publicly or else they would end up in Michelins little black book. Eventually though these complaints wore Carmelocalm down and this is the reason SNS was banned.

As Jumkie points out the 'haves' such as Biaggi and Gibberplow would be crazy to complain about receiving SNS regardless which rider/s data was being used to produce them, due to the alternative not being particularly attractive: B or if you were really pissing Michelin off even down to C spec. Stoner famously managed to piss Michelin off with his lack of political sensitivity and after running with the leaders during practice of one particular GP, he was promptly demoted on race day to tires he claims were fried after 3 laps.

Imo the worst years of motogp/500cc have been due to the Michelin monopoly. Unfortunately this included Doohans title run, compared to my personal 500cc holy grail of season of 1991 it wasn't as interesting or unpredictable. Late 80's/early 90's Dunlop were competitive and we had good racing. Michelin had less time to extort money from teams and had to concentrate more on beating Dunlop. Rainey says in his book he preferred being an underdog on Dunlop, he and team Roberts were generally a bit of a 'fuck you' to the establishment. When Rainey did run Michelin, I think due to talk Dunlop were pulling out, they gave him a tire and he ran his first laps 2 seconds off the pace. Not being shy he went straight to Michelin, as the raining champ he knew he wasn't 2 seconds slower, and more or less exclaimed wtf. Michelin nodded suppressing a smirk and said ok Mr Rainey give these a try. He promptly set the fastest lap. What the whole process was Rainey didn't elaborate but I take it as a warning from Michelin to smile on the podium in you're blue hat and thank Michelin after every race or else.

I don't know when the SNS era came in exactly, but I do remember riders prior to SNS saying due to the narrow band Michelins tend to operate in they would bring truckloads of tires to every race and riders, even the fortunate ones would spend all of practice sometimes right up to raceday running through the options hoping to find the magic bullet. SNS was thus mostly introduced by Michelin as a cost saving measure, initially they weren't really made for any one specific rider that I'm aware of. What I do know is that while a young Rossi was enjoying his SNS, one Garry McCoy was doing the guinea pig/donkey work running a new 16.5 inch tire the top runners had already rejected. McCoy eventually got them to suit his style and even managed to win a couple of races. I'm sure you are aware what happened next, in a nutshell it is the reason Ive always seen Michelin as bad for the sport in the same way Carmelocash $$$$$ is.

After putting up with this crap from Michelin for years and finally getting a decent alternative supplier in Bridgestone it doesnt surprise me in the slightest the likes of Kawasaki, Suzuki, Gresini wasted no time in getting out. I wouldn't blame Rossi for any of this. No doubt he's done a job looking out for himself, his mates at Dorna and Michelin riding piggyback lining their pockets were the problem. At the end of the day the control tire is a better compromise than the Michelin monopoly.
Sure, I knew you would have a very informed perspective on all this. I followed the sport back then but mainly from the free to air TV coverage in Australia which didn't go into great detail about tyres etc.

I have always been happy for Rossi to have "his" tyre, it is his opponents not being able to procure suitable tyres, and more particularly having already available suitable tyres taken away from them, which Dorna had now done 3 or 4 times involving at least 2 different top riders imo, to which I object.

As I said in an earlier post, I am no defender of how Michelin operated when they were the dominant tyre supplier. But I also think (not in regard to you) considering absolutely everything that occurs in MotoGP as casting a poor light on Rossi is not far away from denying that anything at all shows him up.
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April 3rd, 2017, 11:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
There's a thing called internet video Dani. It allows you to view recorded motion images from the past. Youtube is a great example of this, as is, believe it or not, MotoGP's very own website.

I'm sure you find internet video handy when you need to find more German Shepherd breeding videos to jerk off to.
Every time you answer a post of mine you just prove what an absolute tool you are, a proper rounded off Allen key. You can't even recognise a dog breed
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