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April 1st, 2017, 12:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
I started my count when GP500 ended and MotoGP started (2002). Honda has 7 championships and Yamaha has 5. My main point is Marc is riding for the most dominate team and it amuses me that some here are trying to act like he's not in a very privileged position. Sure, the man has no shortage of talent... but it's impossible to say that he can ride around the issues of another bike right now. I need to see it to believe it and claiming that his RCV is dogshit thus he can ride anything is a very flawed argument.

Edit: Honda and Yamaha had 5 championships each (counting from 2002) prior to Marquez joining HRC in 2013.
You can't count then.

Lorenzo won the 2015 title, although it is understandable if you are trying to forget that particular title. Since the post 500 era from 2002 on it is Honda 7 (Rossi 2002 and 2003, Hayden 2006, Stoner 2011, MM 2013, 2014 and 2016) and Yamaha 7 (Rossi 2004, 2005, 2008 and 2009, Lorenzo 2010, 2012 and 2015), Ducati 1, and Honda 4, Yamaha 6 prior to the advent of MM.
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April 1st, 2017, 12:49 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
4 different riders won on the RCV, only CS could tame the gp7, apples and oranges.
Capirossi also won on the GP7. Again in favourable conditions much like Miller, Crutchlow and Pedrosas wins.
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April 1st, 2017, 01:04 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
4 different riders won on the RCV, only CS could tame the gp7, apples and oranges.
As was already pointed out to you, Capirossi did win on the bike. So no, you're incorrect one again as usual. No real surprise.

That being said, every first-hand account of the 2016 RCV was that it was an extremely difficult and unforgiving bike to ride.

I'm curious as to what makes you think you know more than the actual riders about the difficulty with which the bike was noted for? It took some luck for those other Honda wins due to rider strategy in wet weather, as we saw at Assen, Sachsenring, and the Brno...wet weather does have a mitigating effect on bike characteristics.

You also seem to forget there was a real question about the viability of the bike at the start of last season when Honda found themselves having a lot of problems due to the spec ECU. That doesn't even get into the fact that Honda changed the firing sequence of the engine for 2017 because of how problematic the power delivery was on the engine. If the bike was so good as you and your buddy think, Honda would not have made such drastic design change for this season.

Seems to me you argue from a position of ignorance.

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April 1st, 2017, 02:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Whether that was because MM asked Honda for the wrong characteristics in the bike is a different question.
Not at all Mike, there's not question about it..it's already been authoritatively established.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
the RCV is being developed for Marquez so if he has an issue with it he should be more careful about what development feedback he's giving his engineers.
You really don't understand the corporate beast that is HRC do you? Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with the reasons that your idol left? Honda always know what's best for their rider remember?

Genius. There you have it. Another Moto Vudu maxim. And that then applies to No.1 rider in history that has ever ridden for Honda? Let's see...that foolish Mick Grant and his oval piston folly, Spencer and his underseat tank insistence. "No need to worry about upgrading the chassis for '89" claimed an indifferent nonchalant Gardner after busting his bollocks throughout '88? Damn that inattentive Doohan ...92 was only a scratch, sod the medics, he should have been more concerned with the fuel injection flight of fancy intended by the HRC engine doctors for '93. Hayden went banging on the doors of HRC towers for that dodgy diaphragm clutch in 2006 did he? (actually, in truth he did)...but he certainly didn't ask for the raft of internals which was to help spawn the ah! ...mighty RC212v!!! And as for that abortion, I suppose we look no further than Pedrosa.

Actually, yeah, do blame Pedrosa come to think of it.

There are of course exceptions. Alex Criville was notoriously directionless at the helm of the 2000 NSR and granted, it wasn't until they actually listened and responded to Rossi and JB's feedback that they were able to craft the 2001 NSR around the rider to such resounding success again.

The main issue wth the 2015 RCV was the Sepang test. Was Márquez culpable? According to Nakamoto, kind of. Imagine that, 'HRC in rider to blame shock!!!' Surely not?

Of course Marc would have wanted more power. But I'm damn sure that the dialogue to HRC engineers wouldn't have gone along the lines of "and remember...it's nothing if it isn't peaky and unmanageable - and just to make it more of a challenge, could I possibly have an excessively stiff chassis to boot?".

Pre season that year, Honda brought new motors to the Sepang test and they were approved by both riders - in particular Márquez who enthused about the package. The excessive heat and humidity tamed the power and whilst also allowing for more flex in the chassis, did not exacerbate the rigidness of the new frame. Nakamoto conceded that HRC had made a mistake, but also that the riders too should have realised. Struggling with an overly aggressive motor which was in complete discord with the new chassis, all they could do was alter the throttle bodies and allow Marc to revert to the 2014 iteration. They did also concede that Dani, Marc, Cal and Scott were struggling to obtain a good lap time because of the engine characteristic.

So as lead developmental rider, should Marquez have realised that the extreme meteorological conditions at Sepang were taming the motorcycle? More importantly, would Honda have listened to him given that they hadn't either? I would suggest not.

From the comfort of our armchairs, (hi Segfault), very often we have no clue what is happening and our interpretation is often pure supposition. I remember last year at Qatar, when the Honda was so shockingly sluggish out of the turn (even more pronounced that this year) and the forthcoming wealth of speculative 'explanations' on this forum.

It turns that in addition to the new counter rotation, Honda had machined an excessively heavy crank to improve throttle response, yeah, I have no doubt the riders requested more feel on the gas, but are they then responsible for the lack of acceleration as a consequence of the solution? Marquez again hated the feel of the 2016 Honda, which delivered all the negatives of counter rotation in spades - such as understeer when leaned over and an overcompensating torque reaction. Again after Losail, the die was cast. It wasn't until as far into the season as Catalunya, that new chassis modifications arrived as I recall - which both riders rejected for their loose feel.

Last year, there had been a major rebalancing of all bikes to accommodate the Michelins remember, yet you laughably claim "the RCV is being developed for Márquez so if he has an issue with it he should be more careful about what development feedback he's giving his engineers." Like any contemporary prototype motorcycle, the RCV is developed around the tyres first, rider preferences second. In addition to major revision to the beams an attempt to ensure the retention of rigidity, (it didn't work) - there was a reduction in lateral strength to exact less pressure on the tyres when leant over. It transpires that the swing arm pivot point was lowered too which meant under acceleration it would not lift the rear with as much force transferring less load forward onto the Michelins' notoriously dodgy front. This would have also have been of intended benefit to Dani who as I recall was having problems hooking up the rear. Both riders found the chassis not to their liking due to it's loose feel - Márquez again opting for a 2014 hybrid.

As No.1 rider you are actually suggesting that he was entirely to blame for this set of circumstances? Actually, retaining a two year old chassis, in addition to his new conservative approach to racing (I use that in the relative sense) delivered another title, and less so the direction that HRC had taken themselves with the new bike.

Actually if you remember, the 'new concept chassis' rejected by Márquez and Pedro trickled down to the LCR garage of all places. Christmas and Birthday arrived at once for proud new Dad Crutch, who with a broad spread of experience outside of GP and hailing from production racing must have felt quite at home with the flex. Certainly his results improved - I remember him commenting that it felt more like the Yamaha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
I never said it was impossible for a Honda to be problematic.
Actually, here's what you originally said, let me remind you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
Marquez has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
The Repsol Honda is ALWAYS a top machine in the series.
Ducati claimed another victim-2007.jpg
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Last edited by Arrabbiata1; April 1st, 2017 at 02:13 AM.
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April 1st, 2017, 03:25 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
As was already pointed out to you, Capirossi did win on the bike. So no, you're incorrect one again as usual. No real surprise.

That being said, every first-hand account of the 2016 RCV was that it was an extremely difficult and unforgiving bike to ride.

I'm curious as to what makes you think you know more than the actual riders about the difficulty with which the bike was noted for? It took some luck for those other Honda wins due to rider strategy in wet weather, as we saw at Assen, Sachsenring, and the Brno...wet weather does have a mitigating effect on bike characteristics.

You also seem to forget there was a real question about the viability of the bike at the start of last season when Honda found themselves having a lot of problems due to the spec ECU. That doesn't even get into the fact that Honda changed the firing sequence of the engine for 2017 because of how problematic the power delivery was on the engine. If the bike was so good as you and your buddy think, Honda would not have made such drastic design change for this season.

Seems to me you argue from a position of ignorance.
Oh sorry I forgot that flash in the pan moment, invisible for the most part though . Yes the Honda may have been difficult but it wasn't unrideable for most riders like the Ducati.
Seems to me you argue from a position high up in an ivory tower.
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April 1st, 2017, 03:39 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Oh sorry I forgot that flash in the pan moment, invisible for the most part though . Yes the Honda may have been difficult but it wasn't unrideable for most riders like the Ducati.
Seems to me you argue from a position high up in an ivory tower.
Fair enough about Capirossi's win, it was aberrant and in a dry-wet race which Stoner didn't try to actually win, requiring only a finish in front of Rossi to win the title.

As I recall though apart from the odd podium in other races for Capirossi and the famous podium by Barros which was perhaps at least partly due to a tyre gamble, the problem with the 2007 Ducati for riders other than Stoner was non-competitive pace for those who did not employ his method. The 2016 Honda was not only slow for riders other than MM but also frequently crashed by them cf a whole thread on here in regard to Crutchlow's propensity to crash so often prior to the introduction of the revised chassis when he suddenly became a reliable finisher and dry race winner.
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April 1st, 2017, 03:50 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Oh sorry I forgot that flash in the pan moment, invisible for the most part though . Yes the Honda may have been difficult but it wasn't unrideable for most riders like the Ducati.
Seems to me you argue from a position high up in an ivory tower.
Oh, so was it a flash-in-the-pan win due to the weather at Motegi that year?

Here's a news article from December...pay attention to what Cal says about where the Honda ranks relative to the other major factory bikes.

Quote:
Honda's 2016 bike eclipsed its predecessor as the toughest machine Cal Crutchlow has ridden in MotoGP.

After time on satellite Yamahas with Tech3 and then a single season factory Ducati, the Briton joined LCR Honda in 2015.

That represented Crutchlow's third different manufacturer in as many seasons, and he classed the Honda as the hardest bike he had experienced in MotoGP.

Honda's aggressive power delivery, combined with a change to a control ECU and Michelin tyres, added to that challenge again in 2016, Crutchlow believes.

"This year's is probably even worse," Crutchlow told Autosport.

"Like I've always said, the easiest one was Yamaha. It's like smoking a cigarette riding around compared to the Honda.

"The Ducati was then in the middle and then this one is the hardest one to ride.

"Your heart rate is way higher than the other bikes.

"Physically, mentally, you have to correct everything with our bike all the time where the other ones just do it.

"[On rival bikes] you don't have to worry about the rear brake, you don't have to worry about the wheelie.

"But that's what makes Honda, Honda. That's what makes it exciting, that's what makes it a challenge.

"If I wanted to move I'd move."

Marc Marquez won his third title in four years with Honda in 2016, winning five races to go with two for Crutchlow and one each for Dani Pedrosa and Marc VDS satellite rider Jack Miller.

That gave Honda a total of nine wins from the 18 grands prix, but life was tougher for the riders other than Marquez over the course of the campaign, with Pedrosa and Crutchlow finishing sixth and seventh in the points.

Crutchlow endured a particularly tough start to the season - 18th after eight races - and he believes that subsequent gains were down to understanding the package more, rather than Honda making breakthrough with the less-refined electronics.

"I don't think that they've done one thing to suddenly make it better," he said.

"Marc kept saying the electronics were improving but really we never had any updates or anything like that.

"Everyone was just learning to ride the package more.

"If you look where Tito [Rabat] and Jack are, they're nowhere.

"And we're not getting anything special or new, it's just we're learning to ride faster with what we've got.

"I don't think there are three other riders that could go our speed with our package - me, Marc and Dani.

"If there was there'd be different people on the bikes."

Cal Crutchlow: Honda was most difficult MotoGP bike again in 2016 - MotoGP - Autosport
So you have a choice here, you can just admit the Honda was not the best, or even second best bike on the grid...or you can keep doubling-down on an indefensible and outright stupid position like your buddy.
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April 1st, 2017, 04:22 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Some things never change. We've been pummeled over and over again for years with the eternal Bopper meme. When Rossi wins a race - it's because He's THE GOAT!

But anybody else... the bike won the race.
I think what irks so many heretics and non believers is the tiresome hagiography and the excessive bias in the press. MCN is one of the main sources of the liturgy.

Here's the pre-season review...

Ducati claimed another victim-imag0004.jpg
As I recall Marquez is WC

Here's the opening race report from MCN sport back pages ...

Ducati claimed another victim-imag0005.jpg
Odd, I don't remember Marquez similarly receiving such acclaim for similarly defying the challenges in testing and qualifying and finishing third last year.

Flick the page over, they surely must be leading with the race winner? Don't be ridiculous...

Ducati claimed another victim-imag0007.jpg
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April 1st, 2017, 07:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
Not at all Mike, there's not question about it..it's already been authoritatively established.



You really don't understand the corporate beast that is HRC do you? Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with the reasons that your idol left? Honda always know what's best for their rider remember?

Genius. There you have it. Another Moto Vudu maxim. And that then applies to No.1 rider in history that has ever ridden for Honda? Let's see...that foolish Mick Grant and his oval piston folly, Spencer and his underseat tank insistence. "No need to worry about upgrading the chassis for '89" claimed an indifferent nonchalant Gardner after busting his bollocks throughout '88? Damn that inattentive Doohan ...92 was only a scratch, sod the medics, he should have been more concerned with the fuel injection flight of fancy intended by the HRC engine doctors for '93. Hayden went banging on the doors of HRC towers for that dodgy diaphragm clutch in 2006 did he? (actually, in truth he did)...but he certainly didn't ask for the raft of internals which was to help spawn the ah! ...mighty RC212v!!! And as for that abortion, I suppose we look no further than Pedrosa.

Actually, yeah, do blame Pedrosa come to think of it.

There are of course exceptions. Alex Criville was notoriously directionless at the helm of the 2000 NSR and granted, it wasn't until they actually listened and responded to Rossi and JB's feedback that they were able to craft the 2001 NSR around the rider to such resounding success again.

The main issue wth the 2015 RCV was the Sepang test. Was Márquez culpable? According to Nakamoto, kind of. Imagine that, 'HRC in rider to blame shock!!!' Surely not?

Of course Marc would have wanted more power. But I'm damn sure that the dialogue to HRC engineers wouldn't have gone along the lines of "and remember...it's nothing if it isn't peaky and unmanageable - and just to make it more of a challenge, could I possibly have an excessively stiff chassis to boot?".

Pre season that year, Honda brought new motors to the Sepang test and they were approved by both riders - in particular Márquez who enthused about the package. The excessive heat and humidity tamed the power and whilst also allowing for more flex in the chassis, did not exacerbate the rigidness of the new frame. Nakamoto conceded that HRC had made a mistake, but also that the riders too should have realised. Struggling with an overly aggressive motor which was in complete discord with the new chassis, all they could do was alter the throttle bodies and allow Marc to revert to the 2014 iteration. They did also concede that Dani, Marc, Cal and Scott were struggling to obtain a good lap time because of the engine characteristic.

So as lead developmental rider, should Marquez have realised that the extreme meteorological conditions at Sepang were taming the motorcycle? More importantly, would Honda have listened to him given that they hadn't either? I would suggest not.

From the comfort of our armchairs, (hi Segfault), very often we have no clue what is happening and our interpretation is often pure supposition. I remember last year at Qatar, when the Honda was so shockingly sluggish out of the turn (even more pronounced that this year) and the forthcoming wealth of speculative 'explanations' on this forum.

It turns that in addition to the new counter rotation, Honda had machined an excessively heavy crank to improve throttle response, yeah, I have no doubt the riders requested more feel on the gas, but are they then responsible for the lack of acceleration as a consequence of the solution? Marquez again hated the feel of the 2016 Honda, which delivered all the negatives of counter rotation in spades - such as understeer when leaned over and an overcompensating torque reaction. Again after Losail, the die was cast. It wasn't until as far into the season as Catalunya, that new chassis modifications arrived as I recall - which both riders rejected for their loose feel.

Last year, there had been a major rebalancing of all bikes to accommodate the Michelins remember, yet you laughably claim "the RCV is being developed for Márquez so if he has an issue with it he should be more careful about what development feedback he's giving his engineers." Like any contemporary prototype motorcycle, the RCV is developed around the tyres first, rider preferences second. In addition to major revision to the beams an attempt to ensure the retention of rigidity, (it didn't work) - there was a reduction in lateral strength to exact less pressure on the tyres when leant over. It transpires that the swing arm pivot point was lowered too which meant under acceleration it would not lift the rear with as much force transferring less load forward onto the Michelins' notoriously dodgy front. This would have also have been of intended benefit to Dani who as I recall was having problems hooking up the rear. Both riders found the chassis not to their liking due to it's loose feel - Márquez again opting for a 2014 hybrid.

As No.1 rider you are actually suggesting that he was entirely to blame for this set of circumstances? Actually, retaining a two year old chassis, in addition to his new conservative approach to racing (I use that in the relative sense) delivered another title, and less so the direction that HRC had taken themselves with the new bike.

Actually if you remember, the 'new concept chassis' rejected by Márquez and Pedro trickled down to the LCR garage of all places. Christmas and Birthday arrived at once for proud new Dad Crutch, who with a broad spread of experience outside of GP and hailing from production racing must have felt quite at home with the flex. Certainly his results improved - I remember him commenting that it felt more like the Yamaha.



Actually, here's what you originally said, let me remind you...





Attachment 12433


My statements that Marquez has never ridden an unfavorable GP bike and the Repsol Honda is ALWAYS a top machine in the series doesn't mean the RCV never has issues. Again, some of you are ignoring the fact that all the other bikes have issues as well.

Marc's RCV isn't a bad bike ≠ the RCV is always perfect.
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April 1st, 2017, 07:28 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
I think what irks so many heretics and non believers is the tiresome hagiography and the excessive bias in the press. MCN is one of the main sources of the liturgy.

Here's the pre-season review...

Attachment 12434
As I recall Marquez is WC

Here's the opening race report from MCN sport back pages ...

Attachment 12435
Odd, I don't remember Marquez similarly receiving such acclaim for similarly defying the challenges in testing and qualifying and finishing third last year.

Flick the page over, they surely must be leading with the race winner? Don't be ridiculous...

Attachment 12436
Why shouldn't the press cover Rossi more than Marquez and the other riders? There's plenty of people here that HATE Rossi, yet Rossi continues to be the main subject of discussion. Marquez won the championship last year, but his biggest fans here rarely if ever start threads to discuss HIM... they make threads for Rossi. This little forum full of Rossi haters proves that Rossi is by far the rider that damn near everyone focuses on. I don't know about you but if I dislike something/someone, I don't go out of my way to constantly talk about it/them.

Last edited by moto vudu; April 1st, 2017 at 07:37 AM.
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