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March 31st, 2017, 06:01 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
They're clinging very hard to Vinaeles because they know that he's the only hope to stop Marquez stringing a few titles together. I'm sure deep down they know that Marquez winning 5 or 6 titles, without the help of SNS, with the control tyre, now a few with the unified software and he's already done it on a worse bike than Rossi ever won a championship on that it would eclipse Rossis perceived GOATness.
I'm just wondering when Vinales will become the new focus on boppersooking. It has to happen.
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March 31st, 2017, 07:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Last years RCV won half of all races, really not such a bad bike then.
Some things never change. We've been pummeled over and over again for years with the eternal Bopper meme. When Rossi wins a race - it's because He's THE GOAT!

But anybody else... the bike won the race.

Last edited by Keshav; March 31st, 2017 at 07:26 PM.
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March 31st, 2017, 07:32 PM   #53
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Last years RCV won half of all races, really not such a bad bike then.
In 2002, the RCV won 14 of 16 races. 11 of which were Rossi except they weren't as it was the bike. Same applies to 2003 when Honda won 15 of 16 races.

In 2004: Yamaha won 9 of 16 races. So why was it considered a bad bike compared to the Honda? Oh wait, Rossi was riding it.

In 2005: Yamaha won 11 of 16 races. So why was it again considered a bad bike?
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March 31st, 2017, 07:43 PM   #54
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There is usually an element of both imo.

Amusing that while decrying other posters a certain someone calls Honda the historically dominant bike; by my calculation the current relative number of riders' championships is Honda 18 - Yamaha 17, with the number 15 - 16 prior to MM.

Last edited by michaelm; March 31st, 2017 at 07:46 PM.
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March 31st, 2017, 08:22 PM   #55
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I started my count when GP500 ended and MotoGP started (2002). Honda has 7 championships and Yamaha has 5. My main point is Marc is riding for the most dominate team and it amuses me that some here are trying to act like he's not in a very privileged position. Sure, the man has no shortage of talent... but it's impossible to say that he can ride around the issues of another bike right now. I need to see it to believe it and claiming that his RCV is dogshit thus he can ride anything is a very flawed argument.

Edit: Honda and Yamaha had 5 championships each (counting from 2002) prior to Marquez joining HRC in 2013.

Last edited by moto vudu; March 31st, 2017 at 09:48 PM.
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March 31st, 2017, 09:37 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
I started my count when GP500 ended and MotoGP started (2002). Honda has 7 championships and Yamaha has 5. My main point is Marc is riding for the most dominate team and it amuses me that some here are trying to act like he's not in a very privileged position. Sure, the man has no shortage of talent... but it's not impossible to say that he can ride around the issues of another bike right now. I need to see it to believe it and claiming that his RCV is dogshit thus he can ride anything is a very flawed argument.

Edit: Honda and Yamaha had 5 championships each (counting from 2002) prior to Marquez joining HRC in 2013.
Perhaps Honda should be the historically dominant team given the resources they have and are apparently prepared to expend, but the fact is that this is not so whatever way you want to slice it, and it has mostly been fairly even between Honda and Yamaha for riders' titles (credit to Yamaha for that), and it seems that significant swings have occurred on the basis of the then current riding talent.

I have given you two unambiguous previous examples of both Honda and Yamaha coming up with dud bikes, and there are arguably more, many would and have put Rossi not winning in 2006 down to a suboptimal bike with chatter problems for instance. Exactly why is it impossible for a Honda premier class GP bike to be problematic in a given year? As I previously posted, we have already seen what MM can do on a really good bike, like Valentino and others before him.

Why the need to restrict your sample size to other than the "modern" era which began when the Japanese manufacturers joined or re-joined the fray, since which time Honda and Yamaha have been the only constant participants, btw?

Last edited by michaelm; March 31st, 2017 at 09:41 PM.
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March 31st, 2017, 10:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Perhaps Honda should be the historically dominant team given the resources they have and are apparently prepared to expend, but the fact is that this is not so whatever way you want to slice it, and it has mostly been fairly even between Honda and Yamaha for riders' titles (credit to Yamaha for that), and it seems that significant swings have occurred on the basis of the then current riding talent.

I have given you two unambiguous previous examples of both Honda and Yamaha coming up with dud bikes, and there are arguably more, many would and have put Rossi not winning in 2006 down to a suboptimal bike with chatter problems for instance. Exactly why is it impossible for a Honda premier class GP bike to be problematic in a given year? As I previously posted, we have already seen what MM can do on a really good bike, like Valentino and others before him.

Why the need to restrict your sample size to other than the "modern" era which began when the Japanese manufacturers joined or re-joined the fray, since which time Honda and Yamaha have been the only constant participants, btw?
I never said it was impossible for a Honda to be problematic. The issue is when you only pay attention to the problems Marc had to overcome while ignoring the flaws with the other bikes. The M1 isn't perfect and the bikes further down the grid have far more issues.

I started my sample size at 2002 because that was the first year for the RCV and M1.
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March 31st, 2017, 10:02 PM   #58
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Lorenzo's interview comments are fascinating, but worrisome. I can't understand how everyone on the outside could see the Ducati was going to be a problem for Lorenzo due to his style, while Lorenzo somehow remained oblivious? I wonder if the initial signing had something to do with the winglets and making a bet that they would still be on the bike for 2017 rather than gone.

Ditto on Marquez. He is the only rider who can give Ducati that second world title.
One of these days, fans of GP are going to have to admit that these guys sometimes make decisions based on money. Lorenzo could have taken a deep breath, singed with Yamaha and contended for titles year after year on what is arguably the best bike on a consistent basis.We like to fantasize about these guys being the last gladiators who's only motivation is to beat their enemies into the ground,while the truth is, they are wanting to get paid just like any other athlete. Like you said, most knowledgeable fans predicted Lorenzo would struggle, it was almost a given. When a team offers up life changing money, these guys are 2-0 leaving the best Nike on the grid for the sack of cash. Next will be Marquez, he will grow tired of Honda's dependence on him while they roll out mediocre bikes year after year and wait to see if his freakish talents can overcome them. It could be as early as 2019 but depends on what Lorenzo does, but at some point in the next 2-4 years, Ducati will offer Marquez 20 million and he will take it. The difference is going to be, he wins on it, concreting his status as the greatest of all time
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March 31st, 2017, 10:24 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
I never said it was impossible for a Honda to be problematic. The issue is when you only pay attention to the problems Marc had to overcome while ignoring the flaws with the other bikes. The M1 isn't perfect and the bikes further down the grid have far more issues.

I started my sample size at 2002 because that was the first year for the RCV and M1.
You can argue whatever you like and choose whatever time period you like, my point is more that you and JKant in particular are very prone to being selective yourselves or taking others to task for speculation while doing exactly the same yourselves, although JKant is imo more at fault than you for assigning speculations the status of "reasonable inferences" where his own arguments are concerned, while requiring a forensic level of evidence from his opponents.

MM obviously had a very good/the best bike in 2014, and I suspect he also did in 2013, his performance in that year being impressive because he was a rookie rather than because he overcame equipment disadvantages. The 2016 bike was clearly problematic for every other Honda rider, as numerous crashes and generally poor performances prior to the introduction of the new chassis other than in unusual circumstances in wet races demonstrated. Whether that was because MM asked Honda for the wrong characteristics in the bike is a different question. The Yamaha appeared to me at least to be a better overall bike, let down on a number of occasions by substandard Michelin tyres which imo introduced a lottery element to the whole 2016 season. Perhaps the only virtue of Michelin's control tyre last year is that MM had to overcome exactly the same tyres as every other rider.

Last edited by michaelm; March 31st, 2017 at 11:13 PM.
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April 1st, 2017, 12:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Do you believe the GP7 was not a bad bike?
4 different riders won on the RCV, only CS could tame the gp7, apples and oranges.
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