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March 31st, 2017, 02:26 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
It's you that doesn't know shit about MotoGP. Marc didn't win last year's championship on a bad bike... not by a long shot. Marc rides for the most dominate team on the most dominate bike. Comparing Marc to Pedrosa isn't quite fair since the bike has been developed away from Pedrosa to better suit Marquez (like what HRC did to Hayden).

Riders that had a "bad bike" last year would be:
Danilo Petrucci
Scott Redding
Yonny Hernadez
Eugene Laverty
Hector Barbera
Loris Baz
Tito Rabat
Jack Miller
Cal Crutchlow
Aleix Espargaro
Maverick Vinales
Andrea Dovizioso
Andrea Iannone
Obviously the bike was good enough for MM to win on.

I think JPS has a point though. There is a difference between a bike which is good in general for any rider, and a bike which a particular rider can get to go fast enough to win but has significant flaws. Pretty much everyone else was crashing that bike frequently, Crutchlow particularly before the chassis change, and Pedrosa who is usually competitive when healthy was nowhere much of the season.

If Honda always had the best bike because of their resources or were truly historically dominant, Yamaha riders wouldn't have won a close to equivalent number of titles. Honda, and Yamaha for that matter, can and do stuff up their bikes from time to time, cf the year 2000 when your boy started in the premier class and the "factory" factory bike with Alex Criville as the lead rider and defending champion went backwards at a rate of knots. Yamaha in 1993 came up with a rather bad bike, so much so that Rainey had to switch to a customer frame.

Whether MM is partly to blame for the bike being bad is another question.

Last edited by michaelm; March 31st, 2017 at 02:40 PM.
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March 31st, 2017, 02:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Segfault View Post
Riding style.

Trouble with armchair racers and internet wannabe pundits is someone somewhere tells something, then it is recited all over the place until everybody starts believing this is the truth.

All, yes ALL MotoGP riders practice motocross. This is important to develop skills to keep sliding bike under control. Stating they ride MotoGP bike "motocross style" is ridiculous.

Rider A can drive smoothly and keep the corner speed, but loses out on brakes. It is fair to say he has his own riding style.
Rider B can outbrake anyone, but can't get it right exiting the corner, losing out on the straights as a result. He has his own style, I agree.
Rider C has all skills in his bag. He can do whatever the bike needs to go fast. He has no riding style, he is too good to be limited just one style.

I'm an old fart who didn't ride a bike for 35 years. Then I moved to Deep South and got myself a Harley. The first day I went out on it I got some rain. I touched the brake and locked up the front at about 50 MPH. It was complete surprise to me, I didn't know the stock Dunlop is such a crap tire. 999 Harley riders out of 1000 could have dropped the bike. My right hand knew what to do even before I became conscious of lockup, the skill I learned when racing, it released the brake and I kept the bike upright.

Now, according to armchair pundits I ride my Harley "sportbike style"?
What a nonsense.
I took your point on your initial post.

I am not so big on the ex-racer thing though.

If you are Kevin Schwantz, sure, although being an ex-rider of his calibre doesn't seem to preclude bias, and of course you yourself have a perspective which someone who has never raced at all doesn't have. I think what these guys, particularly the very top riders, do is quite far away from say club racing though, and I also think that it is possible for people in general to make valid observations of many phenomena regardless of whether they have experienced said phenomena personally.
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March 31st, 2017, 02:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Obviously the bike was good enough for MM to win on.

I think JPS has a point though. There is a difference between a bike which is good in general for any rider, and a bike which a particular rider can get to go fast enough to win but has significant flaws. Pretty much everyone else was crashing that bike frequently, Crutchlow particularly before the chassis change, and Pedrosa who is usually competitive when healthy was nowhere much of the season.

If Honda always had the best bike because of their resources or were truly historically dominant, Yamaha riders wouldn't have won a close to equivalent number of titles. Honda, and Yamaha for that matter, can and do stuff up their bikes from time to time, with the year 2000 when your boy started in the premier class and the "factory" factory bike with Alex Criville as the lead rider and defending champion went backwards at a rate of knots. Yamaha in 1993 came up with a rather bad bike, so much so that Rainey had to switch to a customer frame.

Whether MM is partly to blame for the bike being bad is another question.
No Honda rider received the same level of support from HRC as Marquez.

Like I said in another thread, if you want to make a case for last year's RCV being bad, I'll make the case for last year's M1 also being bad since it struggled at all the races with cool & wet conditions (not to mention 2 blown engines).

Last edited by moto vudu; March 31st, 2017 at 02:44 PM.
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March 31st, 2017, 02:51 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
No Honda rider received the same level of support from HRC as Marquez.

Like I said in another thread, if you want to make a case for last year's RCV being bad, I'll make the case for last year's M1 also being bad since it struggled at all the races with cool & wet conditions (not to mention 2 blown engines).
Last years RCV won half of all races, really not such a bad bike then.
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March 31st, 2017, 03:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Last years RCV won half of all races, really not such a bad bike then.
Look at the conditions of some of those races won.

Miller won because many others crashed out and he had nothing to lose and went for the victory.
Crutchlow won his first race because he gambled on tyres and it paid off. He won his second race because the leader crashed out with a 4.5 second lead.
Pedrosa won because his size allowed him to be the only guy who could make the soft option work at the end of the race so he could run a pace that no one could match.

Now the satellite guys do well in wet/difficult conditions because they can take more races. The difference between the Miller/Crutchlow and Pol/Smith on the satellite Yamaha is a huge gap in talent. Ask Tito who's Pols and Smiths equal how great the Honda is.

Everyone who rode the bike said it was terrible, other riders said that the bike wasn't good and Marquez was the difference. It was being out dragged by the Suzuki FFS which meant everyone on the Honda had to take chances by braking deeper than anyone else needed to to make up time.

As for the m1 yes, Lorenzo struggled in cooler conditions when he couldn't get heat into the front tyre. Rossi didn't struggle anywhere near as much. The blown engines were one weekend where the factory stupidly decided to raise the rpm ceiling and paid the price for it. It's very possible though that if they hadn't Marquez would've beat Lorenzo to the line at Mugello.
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March 31st, 2017, 03:30 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Last years RCV won half of all races, really not such a bad bike then.
Do you believe the GP7 was not a bad bike?
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March 31st, 2017, 03:30 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moto vudu View Post
No Honda rider received the same level of support from HRC as Marquez.

Like I said in another thread, if you want to make a case for last year's RCV being bad, I'll make the case for last year's M1 also being bad since it struggled at all the races with cool & wet conditions (not to mention 2 blown engines).
We do know what happens when MM has a better/truly dominant bike, cf 2014, 10 wins on the bounce, a record 13 in total.
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March 31st, 2017, 03:57 PM   #48
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1st race on it does not prove shit anyway.
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March 31st, 2017, 04:14 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by imunderandoverit View Post
1st race on it does not prove shit anyway.
No ........ it proves the boppers are going to make something of it lololol.
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March 31st, 2017, 05:06 PM   #50
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No ........ it proves the boppers are going to make something of it lololol.
They're clinging very hard to Vinaeles because they know that he's the only hope to stop Marquez stringing a few titles together. I'm sure deep down they know that Marquez winning 5 or 6 titles, without the help of SNS, with the control tyre, now a few with the unified software and he's already done it on a worse bike than Rossi ever won a championship on that it would eclipse Rossis perceived GOATness.
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