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June 7th, 2017, 06:01 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by yamfan View Post
Iannnone once again had more experience on a Ducati.
Marquez wasn't available.
Simples...
Not in his first season he wasn't.

Re: Marquez. Yeah well, no shit. Just saying of the riders in the paddock, he'd be the one to do the job.
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June 7th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by JPSLotus View Post
Regarding Capirossi...Wayne Rainey who had Capirossi ride for him 20 years ago said Capirossi was a guy who rode on talent and was never willing to put the effort in required to be a world champion at the top level. He was lazy.

His performance from 2006 to 2007 supports this. The 990cc Desmo GP6 was a good bike and he did well on it because he didn't have to work as hard on it, and could let his talent takeover. Then the 800cc GP7 came a long and was a very difficult bike to ride. He never came close to matching his 2006 performance while his 21 year old teammate was willing to put in the effort and work required to ride that bike and as we know did so to great effect taking 10 wins along with the world title.
Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Ianone, Redding, Petrucci, Bautista................ any more lightbulbs we could try? Oh yeah the Marquez lightbulb burns bright but I'm sure the Ducati socket would soon short him out. To be fair the lightbulbs ain't the problem and the Ducati socket isn't either. The rules, the tires and the sport in general on the other hand.........
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June 7th, 2017, 06:06 AM   #143
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Capirossi, Stoner, Melandri, Hayden, Rossi, Lorenzo. Get another lightbulb you say?

I'll say this, who was the last rider to achieve back to back wins on the Duc? It wasn't Ianone, and it wouldn't be Ianone this year, based on his performance on the Suzuki, or Marquez, based on his performance on the Honda. At this point Ianone would probably have crashed the wingless Duck more times than he'd finished.

If Dovi achieves multiple wins on the Duc this year and contends for the championship then they will have a dilemma, but if Dovi has the one odd inspired win at Mugello on what is undoubtedly his Ducati and that's it there is no doubt, they must and they will redevelop the Ducati around Lorenzo for 2018 to see what he can do.

In the mean time, yeah maybe they will sign some kid as the forth choice rider and get a championship, or maybe lightning will strike Bologna and blow the factory to bits, the odds of either are probably about the same.
Of these, other than Stoner, their results were essentially negligible. Capi had some good results, but on a MUCH different bike, when 4-stroke MotoGp bikes were in their infancy.
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June 7th, 2017, 06:10 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
Not in his first season he wasn't.

Re: Marquez. Yeah well, no shit. Just saying of the riders in the paddock, he'd be the one to do the job.
Not so sure. Casey went from a shitbox RCV to a raw, no data Ducati. Whereas, Marquez walked into HRC and was able to take advantage of all the bountiful data from Dani and CS. In fact, I feel it was was one of his advantages when moving to MotoGP; the ability to absorb and integrate what they had learnt (isn't serving him so well now...)
I have a feeling he would be as lost as anyone hopping to Ducati. There just aren't the reams of data pointing to championship leading pace (unless you go back 9 years)
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Last edited by Dr No; June 7th, 2017 at 06:11 AM. Reason: shitter than usual typing on phone
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June 7th, 2017, 06:13 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by birdman View Post
Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Ianone, Redding, Petrucci, Bautista................ any more lightbulbs we could try? Oh yeah the Marquez lightbulb burns bright but I'm sure the Ducati socket would soon short him out. To be fair the lightbulbs ain't the problem and the Ducati socket isn't either. The rules, the tires and the sport in general on the other hand.........
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.
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June 7th, 2017, 06:26 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.
There seems to be a fairly general opinion at Ducati, who might be somewhat informed about their own bike, that they haven't been able to get tyres which suit their bike since about 2007. J4Rn0 who has been proven correct about the inner workings of Ducati on many occasions has said this recently.
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June 7th, 2017, 06:30 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.
Yes, but what in particular is idiosyncratic about it? Taller heads from de desmo? Is the shitty bulk of the engine what allows higher output or are they just crap at shrinking stuff down?
I always thought that design agility in small companies gave them a specific advantage...is it Audi bureaucracy interfering? Or just crap processes?
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June 7th, 2017, 06:45 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
The rules, tires etc are the same for all the factories. It's pretty much universally accepted that the issue for Ducati is they've been dicking
around for years trying to make a chassis that will compensate for
an idiosyncratic engine design. How many riders and tech gurus
have said this over and over again?

At least with The Cube, they knew when to put it on the shelf and start with a clean slate.
Yes, since 2008 when Yamaha got the same tires as Ducati, the writing has been on the wall. And yet, this last round, we got a Ducati win, on a newly introduced mid season tire change that just happened to make Honda look a bit silly, let alone poor old money bags Lorenzo with his back wheel dragging under the strain.
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June 7th, 2017, 06:54 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post
Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Ianone, Redding, Petrucci, Bautista................ any more lightbulbs we could try? Oh yeah the Marquez lightbulb burns bright but I'm sure the Ducati socket would soon short him out. To be fair the lightbulbs ain't the problem and the Ducati socket isn't either. The rules, the tires and the sport in general on the other hand.........
Part of the equation is always that you need a capable rider for a given bike.

The Ducati has always required a specific skill set that very few have so the lightbulb will matter for as long as Ducati remains committed to the Desmo engine. Unless they decide to go in a different direction with their engine, you're going to need a really bright lightbulb on the bike. Lorenzo is a much brighter lightbulb on the M1, but the Ducati socket is not a good fit for him. I said last year after reality set in I was not expecting him to win a single race at Ducati. As a fan I was hoping to be proven wrong, but what you see is what you get.

In terms of tolerance windows for rider friendliness, I would rank the Yamaha M1 as the number one bike for friendliness. As you start going down the list of bikes, having a truly great rider who can get the most out of the machine becomes more and more of a requisite.

Besides, why mention Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau, Crutchlow, Redding, Petrucci, etc.? None are/were truly elite riders anyway. And mentioning the first 3 is pointless as the final iteration of the 990cc Ducati was the best bike they ever built in GP even over a decade later.

Sure the tires are a problem for everyone not on a Yamaha M1. But Ducati's problems are further exacerbated by the design of the GP. It's better than where they were from 2007-2012, but it's still a highly specialized bike that will ruin careers.
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June 7th, 2017, 06:57 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman View Post
Yes, since 2008 when Yamaha got the same tires as Ducati, the writing has been on the wall. And yet, this last round, we got a Ducati win, on a newly introduced mid season tire change that just happened to make Honda look a bit silly, let alone poor old money bags Lorenzo with his back wheel dragging under the strain.
The law of unintended consequences.

It has actually worked in Lorenzo's favour tyre-wise on occasion in the past.
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