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February 16th, 2017, 10:14 AM   #71
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forget the championships. james stewart considered most talented mxer ever and has less than few... forget the theatricals (edited by sport chanells) before and after the race. forget the long career, these are stats for retirement, not for now. for one hour in 18 sundays per year rossi will overpass guys with better qualification times. i will miss that!
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February 16th, 2017, 11:54 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Theo View Post
You have forgotten Colin Edwards, he was 40 when he retired, admittedly he isn't a world champion in MotoGP, but he's lasted well.
But he was not riding top flight competitive machinery at that age with his last ride on such machinery being years earlier.


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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Gaz meant Rossi is the oldest rider on factory bikes, CE11 was in his early thirties when he was replaced by Lorenzo and finished his gp career on satellite machinery.
Dani beat me, yep exactly.

No other rider has to date and at the age had the opportunity thus my point and something I have said before as we shall never know if people never get teh go.



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Originally Posted by Theo View Post
Yes he is, but what qualification is that, age is more relevant than the bike they ride and I can't see Rossi being a racer at 40.
I can.

Rossi will race in MotoGP as long as he feels he can be competitive and of course on a factory Yamaha he can and will be competitive, ergo the circle - is he competitive because of the bike, or is the bike competitive irrespective of his age (or a combination)


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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
It's only 2 years off so it will depend on his competiveness more so than his age, if he slips back to midpack Yamaha will be looking to replace him and I think at that point he would retire .
Yamaha will be fools to look in 2017 but 2018 if Vinales follows through on the early season promise then thay may well look to greener pastures but for me, as long as Rossi wants to ride there will be a factory seat somewhere

Last edited by Gaz; February 16th, 2017 at 12:44 PM.
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February 16th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #73
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I think the tabloid nature of the coverage is what annoys me the most these days, with the social media feeding back on the so called "journalists", and little or no editorial oversight leading to the sort of frenzy which surrounded PI 2015, which it now seems was paranoid ideation originating from the mind of that bike racing sage, Uccio. That something such as that from a Rossi sycophant can totally pervade an international sport for months doesn't speak to me for the quality of the coverage of the sport having improved.
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Last edited by michaelm; February 16th, 2017 at 02:19 PM.
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February 16th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #74
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I think the tabloid nature of the coverage is what annoys me the most these days, with the social media feeding back on the so called "journalists", and little or no editorial oversight leading to the sort of frenzy which surrounded PI 2015, which it now seems was paranoid ideation originating from the mind of that bike racing sage, Uccio. That something such as that from a Rossi sycophant can totally pervade an international sport for months doesn't speak to me for the quality of the coverage of the sport having improved.
In my opinion Nick Harris has to go, I think the only reason he is kept around is that he has a mildly iconic voice, in the same way Murray Walker did in F1. Apart from the fact he gets riders names wrong and is always 20 seconds behind the action is one issue. But the tired old stale dribble he regurgitates each round cannot be good for the sport or its evolution as new people are introduced to it.

Anything of merit thats current and really should get be getting the airtime is quickly over shadowed by his rants on "Valentino Rossi" (as he says it all glowing and lovingly) and then he proceeds to dribble on endlessley about how wonderful he is and all of his past achievements .... he is inadvertently downplaying all the interesting and current action unfolding each season by being stuck in a time warp and focussing constantly on the past.

Dylan Gray is awesome, he is what the sport needs more of. Fans (especially new ones) want to know about the technology and the intiricate details and how that information relates to whats playing out in the race you are watching. Him doing a test lap of each track on that S1000rr and explaining the circuit layout turn by turn is a great new initiative .... they cut form that to Nick Harris who is just an old fart with nothing new to say and just repeats rubbish that the press sensationalise like a parrot.
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February 16th, 2017, 08:01 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
The money for the bike technology mostly comes from the manufacturers. It certainly isn't coming from Dorna.
The bike development is funded by the manufacturers but the teams are subsidized by Dorna. It supplies about half of a satellite team's total funding IIRC. 2M per rider. Just about enough to pay for a bike lease.

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I may well be descending into old fogeydom, but it is authenticity I look for in sporting contests, not world championship wrestling with scripted villains; I watched that occasionally in the 80s for comic value, not because I thought it was the model for how all sports should be in the future.
Heroes & villains are a matter of perception and loyalty. The concept exists in every sport (except for individual sports like Tennis), its not something that's been written into the MotoGP script.

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My real objection to Rossi is how unpleasant life became for several (actually probably most) of his serious rivals because of the substantial yellow horde element among his fandom, with tacit (and more recently fairly overt) support from Valentino, which diminishes his stature in my eyes; I have never had any problem acknowledging his riding. His problem now is that Marquez is not at all susceptible to off-track gamesmanship and has synapses which are 15 years younger than his. If the Honda is without last year's flaws I can see another walkover like 2014 for MM, as others have said, particularly with Lorenzo no longer on a Yamaha. Even Rossi's admirable improvement in qualifying and 1 lap pace last year came at the cost of the consistency/lack of DNFs that have characterised his career, and I can't see a 10th title happening unless it is scripted, and even I don't accuse Dorna of contriving race results as yet.
Debatable. Rossi had four DNFs in the season - only 2 of them were unforced. He was not trading risk for speed. The crash at Le Mans was entirely avoidable. Assen; unforced albeit in very very treacherous conditions.

Engine blowout at Mugello. And at Japan, Rossi was overriding the bike, he'd already received two warnings before it slid out. But settling for points wasn't an option. If he wanted to retain a sliver of chance of taking the title, he had to push and take his chances.

Relative to the field - it was a reliable performance. Marquez, Lorenzo & Dovizioso crashed thrice. Only Vinales with his one crash at Argentina did better.
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February 16th, 2017, 08:22 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
A very long time ......... started in the late 70's by staying awake whilst the family slept as I snuck out to watch it on SBS in the wee small hours

I started watching because I liked bike racing with a very heavily motorsport oriented family and was fortunate enough that in Oz, a lot of bike racing was televised (as was car racing etc).

Never read a book on MGP until the Wayne Gardner biography (not the best choice) and read few books on the sport now.

I will respectfully disagree on much of what you say as for me, people need access to the sport to become hooked (agree that access does not mean physical but can be printed words as coverage yonks back was very niche driven).

As you say, controversies, jealousies etc do appeal to some, but they also have an opposite effect on others but I readily admit that todays fans need the controversies/jealousies/personality clashes where I come from an era of bike racing is about bikes, riders, teams and tearaways.
You're missing the point. People need physical access yes. That's a necessary precursor. But assuming that the digital age would by itself lead to an equivalent or near-equivalent expansion in the fanbase is incorrect. A heavily motorsport oriented family provided you that accessibility - the same isn't true for most people. They may have access to the same media resources but they're not in the same boat.

And its not that the controversy appeals to some, its that it provides a gateway for those residing outside that motorsport culture. They may not understand or appreciate the racing in the beginning but the drama is something that everyone gets, that everyone can feel.

For example, I avidly follow Moto2 (in fact, I'm disappointed its not discussed more on the forum), no drama, minimal controversy, just good clean racing. But MotoGP was my gateway to Moto2 & Moto3 and I might never have followed MotoGP, if I hadn't been hooked in by the human story behind it. Had I run across a Moto2 race on TV before that, I'd probably have given it a few seconds and then flipped ahead because it would have been meaningless - a sport I don't understand (distance measured in seconds?!!) and not knowing any rider, have no incentive to understand.

Since I'm making confessions, may as well make one more. I have bit of a soft spot for Alex Marquez. Not because of his racing, or his personality or his family connections but quite simply because he's the first Moto2 rider I ever heard of (because of his brother obviously). While I'd been following MotoGP for a while, I didn't watch my first Moto2 race until 2015 (before working backwards). His was the only familiar name in a line up of two dozen unfamiliar ones and (as is human nature) I was rooting for that familiar name to do well (he didn't but that's a different story). In time, you get familiar with the other riders and you can appreciate them, the race and the event as a whole.

That familiarity is what Rossi brought to the sport. Or Dorna did via Rossi. It doesn't matter either way, point is it opened the doors to a generation of fans (and riders). Spanning countries. Spanning continents, come to think of it. And whatever unpleasantness & fanaticism there may have been on the way, it was transitory; that bigger picture is, in my opinion, what really matters.

Quote:
As for DORNA's growing the sport, well I have said for a long time, the golden goose has given them somewhat of a false dawns they have not had to look at alternate markets or income streams, but now as the end of the goose nears they still have not yet seemingly realised the risks that they have built and encouraged.
That Dorna has not done enough to encourage growth in newer markets is fact, but a fact that exists on its own. I suspect it would been true even if Rossi hadn't entered the picture. They may have started climbing it earlier but they'd have a much much bigger mountain to climb (given the large Rossi fan-base in Asia).


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You misunderstand what I was getting at which is that Rossi has been afforded an opportunity that no prior riders were afforded (some careers cut short through injury) where Rossi is the first of an era of less 'sever' (poor choice of words but by comparison) injury and better medical advancements that lengthen the possible careers. Basically, he survived and good on him which has allowed him an opportunity that no other 38 year old (to date) has been afforded as they have not gotten this far (will other 39 year olds be afforded top flight machinery in years ahead? - time will tell)
Perhaps. He received a lifeline in 2013 which maybe another rider won't have. That said, he proved himself in all subsequent seasons. For other riders, if they can deliver on competitive machinery at 38, they should have a competitive ride till they're 40. How many can do it? Time will tell.

Lorenzo will be an interesting one to watch for. I don't think Pedrosa's going to make it to 2020, he's just been battered too much. Dovizioso too will probably have to make room for a younger rider.
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Last edited by JKant; February 16th, 2017 at 08:40 PM.
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February 16th, 2017, 08:31 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKant View Post
The bike development is funded by the manufacturers but the teams are subsidized by Dorna. It supplies about half of a satellite team's total funding IIRC. €2M per rider. Just about enough to pay for a bike lease.


Heroes & villains are a matter of perception and loyalty. The concept exists in every sport (except for individual sports like Tennis), its not something that's been written into the MotoGP script.


Debatable. Rossi had four DNFs in the season - only 2 of them were unforced. He was not trading risk for speed. The crash at Le Mans was entirely avoidable. Assen; unforced albeit in very very treacherous conditions.

Engine blowout at Mugello. And at Japan, Rossi was overriding the bike, he'd already received two warnings before it slid out. But settling for points wasn't an option. If he wanted to retain a sliver of chance of taking the title, he had to push and take his chances.

Relative to the field - it was a reliable performance. Marquez, Lorenzo & Dovizioso crashed thrice. Only Vinales with his one crash at Argentina did better.
This is the thing. I am not opposed to fans having heroes, and have them myself obviously, but the degree to which most of Rossi's serious opponents have been demonised is to me against any true sporting ethos, or what the true sporting ethos should be anyway, particularly in a sport where men risk their lives every time they leave the pits. It is exactly the transfer of the glory hunting soccer hooligan mentality to what was one of the true sports by Hemingway's definition that I despise.

Your argument about Rossi btw if extended to Lorenzo means Rossi finishing ahead of him last season was not all that significant, since he crashed out trying to stay in the title race himself when Rossi had already crashed out, and could easily have settled for points if his aim was just to finish ahead of Rossi in the points. I still think tyres were problematic for both Yamaha riders as the season progressed, not always to the extent of dnfs, and that the deterioration in results as the season progressed was at least partly a result of this. There were some tracks where one of the tyre choices was unusable by the Yamaha riders. Also btw I don't think it is completely speculative to suggest that the engine blow-ups were related to them being turned up too high, which arguably qualifies as trying too hard as well. Rossi in his pomp, which I did actually watch, customarily had about 1 dnf a year.

Last edited by michaelm; February 17th, 2017 at 02:01 AM.
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February 16th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJV80 View Post
In my opinion Nick Harris has to go, I think the only reason he is kept around is that he has a mildly iconic voice, in the same way Murray Walker did in F1. Apart from the fact he gets riders names wrong and is always 20 seconds behind the action is one issue. But the tired old stale dribble he regurgitates each round cannot be good for the sport or its evolution as new people are introduced to it.
Even though I keep hoping to hear a less of him every race, I think I might miss him when he's gone. Iconic's the right word.

Still... age has caught up. The action on the track is just too fast for him now. I just hope he realizes it on his own and bows out gracefully (perhaps with the occasional guest appearance) rather than being given notice by Dorna, who can't have failed to make note of it.

I wish I spoke Italian or Spanish - their commentaries feel.. exciting.
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Last edited by JKant; February 16th, 2017 at 08:41 PM.
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February 16th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by JKant View Post
You're missing the point. People need physical access yes. That's a necessary precursor. But assuming that the digital age would by itself lead to an equivalent or near-equivalent expansion in the fanbase is incorrect. A heavily motorsport oriented family provided you that accessibility - the same isn't true for most people. They may have access to the same media resources but they're not in the same boat.

And its not that the controversy appeals to some, its that it provides a gateway for those residing outside that motorsport culture. They may not understand or appreciate the racing in the beginning but the drama is something that everyone gets, that everyone can feel.
We disagree once more and you may well be assuming a fair bit in my posts.

I do agree that the numbers of fans would not be what they are today purely through digital accessibility, totally on the same page there but our difference is that I do not subscribe Rossi as wholly or majority responsibility for the increase, I ascribe a whole range of circumstances of which digital and Rossi's emergen together with his use of social media as being just part.

As for controversies, that is another interesting issue as I know a number of people who have been turned off a sport or activity due to controversy (all of course depending on their side of controversy) and also recall much negative coverage around the more recent controversies.

You are correct that some people will be drawn by controversy to at least investigate the sport, but that may also be country dependent as I know many non-racing fans in Oz who laughed with some of the recent controversy and were exceedingly negative in how the sport looked to them (rich, over pampered sportmen who think they are above all others being some of the comments)



Quote:
Originally Posted by JKant View Post
That familiarity is what Rossi brought to the sport. Or Dorna did via Rossi. It doesn't matter either way, point is it opened the doors to a generation of fans (and riders). Spanning countries. Spanning continents, come to think of it. And whatever unpleasantness & fanaticism there may have been on the way, it was transitory; that bigger picture is, in my opinion, what really matters.
The DORNA/Rossi relationship is to cosy for many (I am one) and and to apportion the expansion to Rossi in my opinion overstates his importance in some markets (Yamaha have done brilliant with his marketing in Asia - that would not happen with other riders).


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Originally Posted by JKant View Post
That Dorna has not done enough to encourage growth in newer markets is fact, but a fact that exists on its own. I suspect it would been true even if Rossi hadn't entered the picture. They may have started climbing it earlier but they'd have a much much bigger mountain to climb (given the large Rossi fan-base in Asia).
Rossi and the phenomenon that surrounds him has lulled DORNA and IMO were he not around than I suspect that DORNA (Bridgepoint) would have been forced earlier to look at improving the sports markets and I suspect would have developed the sport greater in Asia and the Americas region.

That is NOT Rossi's fault in any way (hell, if you are the golden goose I say milk it) but is due to the short sidedness of a single track mind of focus in business.

Now, alarm bells sound off in the distance and we see recognition of the need, shame it did not happen 5, 10, 15 years back.



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Originally Posted by JKant View Post
Perhaps. He received a lifeline in 2013 which maybe another rider won't have. That said, he proved himself in all subsequent seasons. For other riders, if they can deliver on competitive machinery at 38, they should have a competitive ride till they're 40. How many can do it? Time will tell.
For mine, the precedence is now set .......... will it be a long term precedent or will it be something else ........
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February 16th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #80
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For example, I avidly follow Moto2 (in fact, I'm disappointed its not discussed more on the forum), no drama, minimal controversy, just good clean racing.
???? Then you obviously haven't been watching it 'avidly' enough.
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