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November 23rd, 2016, 09:30 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by budoist View Post
I disagree on two levels. First, by that argument every battle is a losing one against Honda. They are the biggest and best funded team on the grid, bar none. They can, and have, out spend any one at any time in any area. If that is the case, why should anyone show up?

Second, just because Honda can outspend the competition does not mean that their solution will be the best; nor does it mean that they will implement the right solution in the best way. Smaller, less well funded team can achieve great results by being forced to think of a problem in a different way because of their reduced budget. Ironically, aerodynamics - the very thing being argued against - is the perfect example of this.

Reading between the lines, Honda and Ducati were actually experiencing very similar problems: brutal power delivery, difficult to control motorcycle, reduced feel, etc. Take away Marquez and the Repsol team was doing pretty dismally.... for Repsol at least. Much like Ducati. Honda approached the problem by throwing a lot of money on engine management, traction control, chassis construction and geometry. It was not uncommon for them to show up with enough parts to build three completely different bikes for their riders to test on a race weekend. Without the budget to do that, Gigi had Ducati take a different approach: wings.

All these years later it seems like a simple thing but when Ducati first took the field they were the absolute laughing stock of GP. Now every team has followed their lead and there is a lot of evidence that they provide a tangible benefit to the stability and handling of the bikes that's not just in the riders' heads (as was sometimes stated).

Perhaps the point isn't so much that Ducati can outspend Honda, but the fact that Ducati has a backer who also has deep pockets and can therefore spend sufficient money to come up with a competitive solution regardless of how much money Honda throws at a problem. They have already shown that their creativity can fundamentally change the direction of MotoGP.
And this has proven to be true regarding the way people ride. Look at how America dominated the world of 500cc F1 bikes when the dirt-track riders (with no GP pedigree) started showing up in Europe. It took the Europeans a long time to catch up.
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November 23rd, 2016, 08:03 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Barbedwirebikerr View Post
Interesting, yes, but lots of confusion in that article. For confusion, also see: bollocks.

Dude's conclusions are mainly correct, but his examples and explanations are...questionable.

What do you expect from a stylist?
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November 23rd, 2016, 09:40 PM   #83
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Interesting, yes, but lots of confusion in that article. For confusion, also see: bollocks.

Dude's conclusions are mainly correct, but his examples and explanations are...questionable.

What do you expect from a stylist?
Aerodynamics on motorcycles reached their peak in 1982, don't believe me .... see for yourself.

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November 30th, 2016, 04:27 AM   #84
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The new GSX-R 750RR (apparently) which looks to have an integrated aero front cowl.


Last edited by AJV80; November 30th, 2016 at 01:08 PM.
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December 1st, 2016, 10:20 AM   #85
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The press cycle has started for the 2017 Honda Fireblade, and I note a very interesting change. Last year, the front of the Fireblade looked like this:



For 2017, the newly revamped Fireblade looks like this:



The new structure looks surprisingly like the flying buttresses currently in vogue with supercars to replace the need for large... wings.

Acura NSX:


Ford GTR:


Ferrari 599:


Is this the first salvo of these aerodynamics coming to mainstream bikes? It certainly looks like one possible solution without using "wing" technology, or even layered fairings. But would this be considered a "bulge" that would be banned by the technical director?
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December 1st, 2016, 11:24 AM   #86
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Interesting thing is Lorenzo and Dovizioso tested the GP16 at Valencia. With wings. Then the GP17. Again with wings.

And then Pirro tested the GP17 at Jerez. With wings. And then Petrucci got on board it for the very first time. Again with wings.

Clearly they have something in mind for 2017 and are unwilling to show their hand at the moment.

Maybe they have a plan for the fairing, but I doubt it. Race Direction would clamp down on it on Day 1.

At least that's the impression Yamaha has gotten -

Quote:
"I was talking to the Yamaha engineers yesterday and they were quite surprised by the difference. They could see that with wings there are a lot of things that are not possible to do without.

I also know that following the ban of wings, there was some speculation and some fear from the technical director that the teams could play with some crazy fairings. So this is when we issued a rule about the fairing. And I can tell you that Yamaha brought here a very special fairing that was supposed to be, kind of bringing what the wings are bringing, without the wings. If you see what I mean. But that was out of the rule."

- Herve Poncharal
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December 1st, 2016, 12:14 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKant View Post
Interesting thing is Lorenzo and Dovizioso tested the GP16 at Valencia. With wings. Then the GP17. Again with wings.

And then Pirro tested the GP17 at Jerez. With wings. And then Petrucci got on board it for the very first time. Again with wings.

Clearly they have something in mind for 2017 and are unwilling to show their hand at the moment.

Maybe they have a plan for the fairing, but I doubt it. Race Direction would clamp down on it on Day 1.

At least that's the impression Yamaha has gotten -
When trying the new engines and parts, using the baseline of the current bikes is important to know if there is improvement or not and then move forward.
If you change everything at once, how can you tell which part is better than the old one?
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December 1st, 2016, 12:37 PM   #88
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Quote:
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When trying the new engines and parts, using the baseline of the current bikes is important to know if there is improvement or not and then move forward.
If you change everything at once, how can you tell which part is better than the old one?
Sure. Rossi, Espargaro & Iannone, all went out with older winged bikes to establish a baseline. But then they all moved on to their 2017 bikes, and eventually took the wings off.

Ducati came with GP17s, tested with wings and then left two days later without once taking the wings off (save for just a couple of laps on a wingless GP16 by Dovi). And then they spent another three days at Jerez testing again without taking the wings off.

Six manufacturers have tested but Ducati is very clearly the odd one out. They probably have something up their sleeve, I'm just wondering what it is. (Skeptical about a new fairing, especially in light of Poncharal's statements.)
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December 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKant View Post
Sure. Rossi, Espargaro & Iannone, all went out with older winged bikes to establish a baseline. But then they all moved on to their 2017 bikes, and eventually took the wings off.

Ducati came with GP17s, tested with wings and then left two days later without once taking the wings off (save for just a couple of laps on a wingless GP16 by Dovi). And then they spent another three days at Jerez testing again without taking the wings off.

Six manufacturers have tested but Ducati is very clearly the odd one out. They probably have something up their sleeve, I'm just wondering what it is. (Skeptical about a new fairing, especially in light of Poncharal's statements.)
I noticed that also, changing one thing at a time makes sense to understand the changes and their effects. Maybe Ducati are confident that their 2017 bike will have aerodynamic properties similar to the current winged bikes so much so that its worthy of testing them with wings.

If they have a winning cowl design that has aerodynamic properties similar to the wings and fits within the guidelines of the rules ..... might be worth testing the bikes with wings in place and keeping the 2017 fairing design under wraps until the 11th hour???

Interested in seeing the final cowl design.
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December 1st, 2016, 02:12 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJV80 View Post
I noticed that also, changing one thing at a time makes sense to understand the changes and their effects. Maybe Ducati are confident that their 2017 bike will have aerodynamic properties similar to the current winged bikes so much so that its worthy of testing them with wings.

If they have a winning cowl design that has aerodynamic properties similar to the wings and fits within the guidelines of the rules ..... might be worth testing the bikes with wings in place and keeping the 2017 fairing design under wraps until the 11th hour???

Interested in seeing the final cowl design.
Perhaps they have something which has been pre-approved, or something they believe should meet current rules and plan to make it difficult for RD etc to impose an arbitrary ban by not showing their hand till the season is about to start.

Last edited by michaelm; December 1st, 2016 at 06:38 PM.
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