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November 22nd, 2016, 04:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
Whether they choose to engage in an aerodynamic war with Honda on this particular battlefield is another question, but again imo MotoVudu is correct in this instance and Audi do have the technical and financial resources to engage Honda if they chose to do so,
Technical? Without a doubt. Financial? That is questionable given they have just lost billions in the Emissions cheating scandal, and they are dropping their motorsport projects like flies. Their WEC program is gone, as is WRC.

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Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
True! But the edge would go to the one who has the aeronautics advantage. What moto poo keeps over looking is this bit below

.
Nakamoto also claimed the customer RCV Customer bike lapped within 0.3s of the Factory Repsol Honda...
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November 22nd, 2016, 05:05 PM   #72
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Technical? Without a doubt. Financial? That is questionable given they have just lost billions in the Emissions cheating scandal, and they are dropping their motorsport projects like flies. Their WEC program is gone, as is WRC.



Nakamoto also claimed the customer RCV Customer bike lapped within 0.3s of the Factory Repsol Honda...

With Stoner riding it!
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November 22nd, 2016, 06:10 PM   #73
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Motorcycle Aerodynamics | Canada Moto GuideInteresting reading.
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November 22nd, 2016, 06:11 PM   #74
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With Stoner riding it!
That's right Stoner put it within .3 of a second of Ayoma or another tests riders times. They've should've known what a fucking fail that bike was going to be.
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November 22nd, 2016, 06:13 PM   #75
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November 22nd, 2016, 07:50 PM   #76
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Technical? Without a doubt. Financial? That is questionable given they have just lost billions in the Emissions cheating scandal, and they are dropping their motorsport projects like flies. Their WEC program is gone, as is WRC.


Nakamoto also claimed the customer RCV Customer bike lapped within 0.3s of the Factory Repsol Honda...
Yep. He tries to tell us that Crutchlow has the same bike as Pedrosa and MM. I don't believe it for a second.

Audi is gone from WEC partly due to $$ but also because they were pushing the clean diesel story which doesn't work anymore. Porsche remains so VW presence in WEC is much as it was for the last 10 years. Audi is off to Formula E now.

As for the 20 year old "aerodynamically perfect" bike? First, nothings perfect. Technology and our understanding of aerodynamics, lift, drag, downforce have changed significantly over the last 20 years. It's an interesting line to throw out there but it means nothing.
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November 23rd, 2016, 01:20 AM   #77
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As for the 20 year old "aerodynamically perfect" bike? First, nothings perfect. Technology and our understanding of aerodynamics, lift, drag, downforce have changed significantly over the last 20 years. It's an interesting line to throw out there but it means nothing.
The gains in analytic processing power alone in the intervening 20-odd years would make the claim of 'aerodynamically perfect' laughable.
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November 23rd, 2016, 03:58 AM   #78
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Maybe. But if perfect there is no compromise.
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November 23rd, 2016, 08:24 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
True! But the edge would go to the one who has the aeronautics advantage. What moto poo keeps over looking is this bit below



This is not new to Honda on a bike.
You however are making the assumption that the advantage would
be as a result of how much money is spent. Whereas... it's not
unusual for an advantage to grow out of one or more people having
a creative epiphany or simply (pardon the cliche) thinking outside
the box.

Look at how many times Ducati has been on the podium in the last
few seasons despite having a smaller budget than Honda - and they've
done so with riders that lack the experience and talent (purchased at
high cost) of the top riders at Honda and Yamaha.

When Rossi was at Ducati they were throwing money at the damned
bike by the truckload and it didn't help. It was a shift in the way Ducati
engineers attacked the problems that resulted in the current bike.

And Honda, despite their enormous R&D budget have pulled some
enormous technical boners over the last 30 years - because they're
so rigid and often quite arrogant regarding their technical prowess.

Ducati's engineering team are very much on the upswing. Just
look at their power advantage and their ability to put that power
the rear wheel in a useful way - despite the use of the off-the-shelf
electronics. More than a bigger budget, they need a better rider
- and now, they may just have that.
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November 23rd, 2016, 09:08 AM   #80
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I'm not saying Ducati should not do it. The point is, it is going to be a loosing battle for them against Honda, as you have pointed out in you 1st paragraph.
I disagree on two levels. First, by that argument every battle is a losing one against Honda. They are the biggest and best funded team on the grid, bar none. They can, and have, out spend any one at any time in any area. If that is the case, why should anyone show up?

Second, just because Honda can outspend the competition does not mean that their solution will be the best; nor does it mean that they will implement the right solution in the best way. Smaller, less well funded team can achieve great results by being forced to think of a problem in a different way because of their reduced budget. Ironically, aerodynamics - the very thing being argued against - is the perfect example of this.

Reading between the lines, Honda and Ducati were actually experiencing very similar problems: brutal power delivery, difficult to control motorcycle, reduced feel, etc. Take away Marquez and the Repsol team was doing pretty dismally.... for Repsol at least. Much like Ducati. Honda approached the problem by throwing a lot of money on engine management, traction control, chassis construction and geometry. It was not uncommon for them to show up with enough parts to build three completely different bikes for their riders to test on a race weekend. Without the budget to do that, Gigi had Ducati take a different approach: wings.

All these years later it seems like a simple thing but when Ducati first took the field they were the absolute laughing stock of GP. Now every team has followed their lead and there is a lot of evidence that they provide a tangible benefit to the stability and handling of the bikes that's not just in the riders' heads (as was sometimes stated).

Perhaps the point isn't so much that Ducati can outspend Honda, but the fact that Ducati has a backer who also has deep pockets and can therefore spend sufficient money to come up with a competitive solution regardless of how much money Honda throws at a problem. They have already shown that their creativity can fundamentally change the direction of MotoGP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evo9 View Post
True! But the edge would go to the one who has the aeronautics advantage. What moto poo keeps over looking is this bit below

This is not new to Honda on a bike.
Not true at all. The edge would go to the team who could make use of the technology. An excellent example of this from the automotive world would be the Nissan GTR. When it first came out there were more powerful cars, more expensive cars, cars with more exotic materials. It beat them all. Why? Because it made enough power and had enough traction control that it simply... went. So you could throw money at your Ferrari and Porsche to make them lighter and more powerful, but while you were spinning tires on corner exit the GTR was accellerating to the next turn because their car put just enough power to the ground.

Also, while the quote from Nakamoto is intriguing, there would appear to be some inconsistencies between both the quote itself and the significance you assign to it (and that he wants the reader to assign to it). First, an aerodynamically "perfect" bike would look nothing like what you see today. The rider is still, by far, the biggest object of drag on the bike. The rider is essentially a dynamic, unstable parachute. So to be aerodynamically perfect you would have to shield the rider entirely, at which point you would end up with something along the lines of the LitMotors machine. Secondly, if the entire thing was so difficult to ride that it was unusable after one lap (which is just 2 mile give or take) then that is a far cry from "perfection" for a racing machine that needs to be rideable for ten times that distance. "Perfection" is almost always a compromise and it depends on the problem that is being solved. If the race is 10 laps (problem to be solved: navigate 10 laps of a given racetrack) and your machine is unusable after 2, then a 10 speed bicycle is actually a more perfect solution because it actually achieves the stated goal. The way I read Nakamoto's quote is that the bike, by itself, had what they determined to be an ideal aerodynamic rating but it made the machine itself almost unrideable. Not exactly perfect.

The other problem is that we don't know that other manufacturers haven't done something similar in the past. Yamaha also had "faster" bikes that they could have used, for example, but ended up choosing the crossplane crank (which Rossi and Furusawa described as the "slower" bike) because they felt it worked best overall. Considering how dominant it was, it would be hard to argue against that logic. Saying that "it's not new to Honda on a bike" seems to imply that other manufacturers haven't done something similar, which appears erroneous. Also, for all of their experience, Honda was still beaten to the punch on a simple solution that solved many of their problems once they copied it.

It is entirely possible that Honda is more than happy to continue throwing incredible amounts of money at the advancements that they have made and used to steer the direction of MotoGP (seamless gearbox, electronics, etc) instead of such a visible example of someone else's innovation.
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Last edited by budoist; November 23rd, 2016 at 09:36 AM.
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