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September 18th, 2016, 03:54 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
The most aggregious case this past weekend had to be Luthi at the start of Moto2.

Overcooked the first turn by a mile, went from 6th to 3rd in one corner which he did not complete, and there after never gave back a place nor was he penalized.

Eventually he finished back to 6th where he started but there was a total lack of care for cutting corners in comparison to barley running a nats ass wide and getting back on exactly in same postion from where you left off.
Assuming you're talking about last week's race at Misano, there was nothing wrong Luthi's move. He was in third place when Nakagami lost his front and veered in front of him, forcing him to go off-track. He then returned to the race in third place.

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Last edited by JKant; September 18th, 2016 at 03:57 AM.
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September 18th, 2016, 05:49 AM   #82
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But couldn't prove it, despite all the evidence that was looked at. It was nothing more than a ploy to keep Rossis championship alive and to try and shift the blame. You think if they looked at the data and it was obvious they wouldn't have said we proved Marquez was fucking with Rossi but he didn't break any rules? Instead Webb just said that he believed didn't believe Marquezs explanation but believed Rossis.
Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.
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September 18th, 2016, 06:39 AM   #83
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Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.
His opinion is similar to mine, and others on this forum, that MM was racing Rossi for position in a legal fashion which is actually not only allowed in GP bike racing but pretty much the essence of that sport, and that RD after specifically finding that he had raced legally had no business making decisions or altering penalties on the basis of his putative motives, particularly when presumably not equipped with mind reading equipment.
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September 18th, 2016, 08:29 AM   #84
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Maybe because RD stated Marquez' was riding "to cause trouble" or however they stated it, in Sepang.
.
Again when Rosi is involved, it is someone else's fault. I was shocked when Mike Webb stated this, without any evidence and thereby also blaming Marquez for Rossi crashing him out. It is unbelievable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.
Marquez rode within the regulations of the sport while racing for position, the ONLY rider in that incident who broke the rules was Rossi and in light of other punishments both before and after, and given that this particular incident was premeditated, the penalty' was extremely light.

If people propose we start punishing riders for 'intent' then there would be more penalties each race than could be counted.
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September 18th, 2016, 09:46 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
Yes, of course race directions statement was because of a pro-Rossi conspiracy, what else could it be.

What exactly are you opposing? You don't think RD thought Marquez was deliberately messing with Rossis race? You don't think that affected their decision with the penalty? Or that bc it's all a conspiracy it's irrelevant.
It's simple, if Race Direction had proof that Marquez deliberately fucked with Rossi they would've said he did. They couldn't find any proof, they had access to everything to prove it other than as Michael said mind reading equipment. But still no proof, if all the data they had from the weekend can't prove he did indeed fuck with Rossi on purpose then he more than likely didn't. DORNA wanted nothing more than a Rossi vs Lorenzo in a straight up fight in Valencia and their dream would've been for Rossi to win. If RD was able to prove that Marquez fucked with Rossi at Sepang(and again they had available information to do so) they could've given him an even more lenient 'penalty' because of something along the lines of Rossi breaking the rules but we proved that Marquez was maliciously slowing Rossi and trying to end his championship dream because of a personal vendetta. Race Direction wasn't able to and you know as well as I do that they sure looked hard.

Marquez believed he had the pace to get away from Rossi, but stated Everytime he got in front of Rossi Rossi would then get in front and slow him - why is Rossi to be believed about this but not Marquez despite Rossi famously doing this before.
Without Rossis pre-race comments on Marquez do you think that he gets such a lenient penalty?

Mike Webbs public statement was an embarrassment to the sport. He deflected part of the blame to the victim without any proof. He said that he believed that Marquez was lying and trying to end Rossis championship while saying that he believed Rossi was telling the truth and didn't mean to make Marquez crash despite a non racing and malicious move that did so.

When asking yourself who was really trying to slow who think about this, Rossi was pushing so hard that he nearly high-sided 3 or so times but despite how hard he was pushing and how on the limit he was he still out broke Marquez to get in front. Much like he did to Stoner in Laguna, the difference between the two races is that Marquez unlike Stoner will give hard moves in return and will fight like a dog for position. None of this proves that Rossi was trying to slow Marquez however Rossi did have more reason to do so, experience doing so and the ability to play the media so it didn't look like he was the one guilty of ruining someone's race.
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September 18th, 2016, 08:00 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by JKant View Post
Assuming you're talking about last week's race at Misano, there was nothing wrong Luthi's move. He was in third place when Nakagami lost his front and veered in front of him, forcing him to go off-track. He then returned to the race in third place.

Yes that is what I was referring. Thanks for adding value to the discussion by bringing in the video.

To understand the advantage Luthi gained by cutting the chicane you first have to recognize the disadvantaged position he put himself in.

He was way out of position for the next turn and right at the moment he was about to pay for the positions gained on entry under braking, and get passed by at least two or three riders, he had the chance to bail on the turn and took it.

I'm not faulting him nor calling for penalties. I would rather this track limits thing be done away with. But you cannot suggest that he was in third place. He would never have held that had he stayed within the track limits.
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September 19th, 2016, 12:03 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
To understand the advantage Luthi gained by cutting the chicane you first have to recognize the disadvantaged position he put himself in.

He was way out of position for the next turn and right at the moment he was about to pay for the positions gained on entry under braking, and get passed by at least two or three riders, he had the chance to bail on the turn and took it.
Luthi wasn't disadvantaged at all. Half through the turn he had better drive than Zarco (might even have taken first place were it not for Nakagami) as well as sufficient track to brake for the next turn (though Zarco might have taken him back there). Compare his speed and the line he took there with any of the subsequent laps. It was good enough.
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September 23rd, 2016, 02:22 AM   #88
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Again when Rosi is involved, it is someone else's fault. I was shocked when Mike Webb stated this, without any evidence and thereby also blaming Marquez for Rossi crashing him out. It is unbelievable.



Marquez rode within the regulations of the sport while racing for position, the ONLY rider in that incident who broke the rules was Rossi and in light of other punishments both before and after, and given that this particular incident was premeditated, the penalty' was extremely light.

If people propose we start punishing riders for 'intent' then there would be more penalties each race than could be counted.
Of course it's unbelievable to you, that's not surprising to anyone.

How do you suggest it should be shown proven through telemetry that Marquez was deliberately messing Rossis race? That's kind of my point, short of a rider rolling off on a straight (which I think everyone can agree Marquez or anyone else is smart enough to not do) it's impossible to conclusively determine deliberate reduction in pace through data.
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September 23rd, 2016, 02:30 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
Of course it's unbelievable to you, that's not surprising to anyone.

How do you suggest it should be shown proven through telemetry that Marquez was deliberately messing Rossis race? That's kind of my point, short of a rider rolling off on a straight (which I think everyone can agree Marquez or anyone else is smart enough to not do) it's impossible to conclusively determine deliberate reduction in pace through data.
So why do you contend it is proven fact that MM was messing with Rossi? And why shouldn't he mess with Rossi in a legal fashion, particularly after being maligned by Rossi, if he so chooses in any case?
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September 23rd, 2016, 02:32 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
Of course it's unbelievable to you, that's not surprising to anyone.

How do you suggest it should be shown proven through telemetry that Marquez was deliberately messing Rossis race? That's kind of my point, short of a rider rolling off on a straight (which I think everyone can agree Marquez or anyone else is smart enough to not do) it's impossible to conclusively determine deliberate reduction in pace through data.
So why do you contend it is proven fact that MM was messing with Rossi? And why shouldn't he mess with Rossi by racing him legally, particularly after Rossi has maligned him and/or attempted to intimidate him, if he so chooses in any case?
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