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September 23rd, 2016, 01:33 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by p4p1 View Post
It's simple, if Race Direction had proof that Marquez deliberately fucked with Rossi they would've said he did. They couldn't find any proof, they had access to everything to prove it other than as Michael said mind reading equipment. But still no proof, if all the data they had from the weekend can't prove he did indeed fuck with Rossi on purpose then he more than likely didn't. DORNA wanted nothing more than a Rossi vs Lorenzo in a straight up fight in Valencia and their dream would've been for Rossi to win. If RD was able to prove that Marquez fucked with Rossi at Sepang(and again they had available information to do so) they could've given him an even more lenient 'penalty' because of something along the lines of Rossi breaking the rules but we proved that Marquez was maliciously slowing Rossi and trying to end his championship dream because of a personal vendetta. Race Direction wasn't able to and you know as well as I do that they sure looked hard.

Marquez believed he had the pace to get away from Rossi, but stated Everytime he got in front of Rossi Rossi would then get in front and slow him - why is Rossi to be believed about this but not Marquez despite Rossi famously doing this before.
Without Rossis pre-race comments on Marquez do you think that he gets such a lenient penalty?

Mike Webbs public statement was an embarrassment to the sport. He deflected part of the blame to the victim without any proof. He said that he believed that Marquez was lying and trying to end Rossis championship while saying that he believed Rossi was telling the truth and didn't mean to make Marquez crash despite a non racing and malicious move that did so.

When asking yourself who was really trying to slow who think about this, Rossi was pushing so hard that he nearly high-sided 3 or so times but despite how hard he was pushing and how on the limit he was he still out broke Marquez to get in front. Much like he did to Stoner in Laguna, the difference between the two races is that Marquez unlike Stoner will give hard moves in return and will fight like a dog for position. None of this proves that Rossi was trying to slow Marquez however Rossi did have more reason to do so, experience doing so and the ability to play the media so it didn't look like he was the one guilty of ruining someone's race.
What was this available information that RD in your mind?

But Marquez was in front of Rossi from the start, before suddenly losing a lot of pace and dropping behind him. After the battle started, the pace naturally dropped massively so trying to determine who had more pace at that point seems difficult to determine. I'd be happy to see your detailed analysis of those laps to see how you came to the conclusion it was Rossi who was trying to slow Marquez down.

What was Rossis motivation in trying to slow Marquez down though? He sees his only title rival at 2nd, passes Marquez and starts to catch Lorenzo a bit. Why does he at this point think he better make sure he denies Marquez instead of trying to catch and pass Lorenzo, for his championship aspirations.

I'll give you another chance to look at LS 08 and see the context between that, and compare it with this, to see if you find anything interesting.

Again, what makes you think RD is required to analyse or make decisions based on only the telemetry?
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September 23rd, 2016, 01:36 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
So why do you contend it is proven fact that MM was messing with Rossi? And why shouldn't he mess with Rossi in a legal fashion, particularly after being maligned by Rossi, if he so chooses in any case?
I don't contend it's a proven fact Marquez was messing with Rossi, I contend that's what I believe in?

So you are saying this is okay in your book, if a rider is called out beforehand? Well that's a whole other topic in itself then.
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September 23rd, 2016, 01:39 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
What was this available information that RD in your mind?

But Marquez was in front of Rossi from the start, before suddenly losing a lot of pace and dropping behind him. After the battle started, the pace naturally dropped massively so trying to determine who had more pace at that point seems difficult to determine. I'd be happy to see your detailed analysis of those laps to see how you came to the conclusion it was Rossi who was trying to slow Marquez down.

What was Rossis motivation in trying to slow Marquez down though? He sees his only title rival at 2nd, passes Marquez and starts to catch Lorenzo a bit. Why does he at this point think he better make sure he denies Marquez instead of trying to catch and pass Lorenzo, for his championship aspirations.

I'll give you another chance to look at LS 08 and see the context between that, and compare it with this, to see if you find anything interesting.

Again, what makes you think RD is required to analyse or make decisions based on only the telemetry?
What has been required of RD previously is the determination of whether riders have raced legally. Motivations of particular riders have been hitherto beyond their purview, presumably reflecting the lack of mind reading equipment in their armamentarium.

Last edited by michaelm; September 23rd, 2016 at 02:47 AM.
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September 23rd, 2016, 01:44 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
I don't contend it's a proven fact Marquez was messing with Rossi, I contend that's what I believe in?

So you are saying this is okay in your book, if a rider is called out beforehand? Well that's a whole other topic in itself then.
I am saying that your belief, just like Rossi's, is a belief, and to proceed on the basis of mere belief, and in particular to contend that your belief is equivalent to proven fact as Rossi pretty much did, in the absence of being able to offer anything in the way of proof, is fallacious and dangerous, as centuries/millenia of wars fought on the basis of religious belief rather prove imo.

Last edited by michaelm; September 23rd, 2016 at 04:03 AM.
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September 24th, 2016, 04:21 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I am saying that your belief, just like Rossi's, is a belief, and to proceed on the basis of mere belief, and in particular to contend that your belief is equivalent to proven fact as Rossi pretty much did, in the absence of being able to offer anything in the way of proof, is fallacious and dangerous, as centuries/millenia of wars fought on the basis of religious belief rather prove imo.
Can you point out where I did this? Or is this one of your endless assumptions?
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September 24th, 2016, 05:01 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by GeniusAtTwerk View Post
Can you point out where I did this? Or is this one of your endless assumptions?
Can you read? I "believe" I said rather specifically that it was Rossi who proceeded on the basis of his belief being fact. I have no idea on what basis you proceed, other than it not involving much in the way of logical argument.

Last edited by michaelm; September 24th, 2016 at 05:06 AM.
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