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June 8th, 2016, 04:21 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Just one correction, my dogs are Belgian Shepherds and they are such a beautiful breed, read up on them. I also had one called Vale too until she sadly passed away.
You called the bitch Vale? Way to go, that proves you are a cool dude after all. I had some bad luck lately with my dogs. I had a great cattle dog that one day pulled his head right out of the collar and jumped out of my ute chasing a roo. I looked for days and never found him, was really bummed until I got another pup recently.

Ps did Vale get rooted by Dani and have a litter of 9 times trophy pups? Ah just messing you're right Sheperds are beautiful dogs.
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Last edited by birdman; June 8th, 2016 at 04:24 AM.
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June 8th, 2016, 04:57 AM   #462
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Returning to this post DB if I may, I apologise if I have misquoted you. Throughout the history of this forum the hero worship on behalf of Rossi fanboys has been overwhelming so understand if I have tarred you with the same yellow brush. I believe it was a member called Evolution who like many VR ‘fans’ tends to materialise only when Rossi wins, or most recently after the Sepang fiasco, so I’m quite bemused by his absence. Much like Moto Viddu he recounted the first time that he saw Rossi and since then has ‘idolised’ him. There are a great many others that regularly use the term hero when referring to Valentino. He posts on nothing other than Rossi and has no interest in the history of the sport or any other motorcycle racing series.

So on ‘perspective’, is the term ‘hero’ appropriate to use in motorsport? Perhaps much like the branding of genius it is liberally and loosely applied. As a kid I suppose I had a ‘Moto Viddu’ ‘Evolution’ moment with Sheene. My excuse for this idolisation was the fact that I was a young child. I begged my Dad to take me to the Trans-Atlantic Challenges at nearby Mallory Park. I fully succumbed to the cult of personality. Sheene was a household name – a marginalised sport was suddenly in the mainstream and he was widely adored and admired and I wholesale bought into it. Nothing else really counted – only Sheene and initially I was wholly and inexcusably ignorant of the history and pedigree of the sport. Nothing else counted. He was, or I thought he was, my hero. Then in an instant he was swept away by a brash young American dirt tracker on an inferior motorcycle. As I grew older and I gained some ‘perspective’ I begrudgingly and painfully began to challenge my beliefs. Initially cognitive dissonance and emotional investment prevented me from accommodating the facts – but soon I began to appreciate, as formidable a rider as Sheene was, as charismatic as he may have been, his success owed a great deal to significantly superior equipment, and exerting his strong influence in the paddock at the expense of other competitors, Similarly talented riders with arguably equal promise such as Hennen, Baker and Hartog who never realised their full potential. Sound familiar?

Then Mike returned to the Island and with it a new ‘perspective’ on the sport. Sheene had been instrumental in removing the TT from the GP calendar reputedly over safety concerns, but more likely due to the cost of ferrying his caravan over on Steam Packet. I had little to no idea what it was, but I soon learnt. I educated myself on the history of motorcycle racing and as a consequence I had a true ‘hero’ this time. It remains that way. Why? His achievements and versatility on a racing motorcycle which renders the exploits of a contemporary ‘nine times’ World Champion almost irrelevant in comparison? That would simply be my opinion which you are welcome to challenge. For me, Mike is a true hero for rescuing Clay Regazzoni from his burning BRM, his own suit ablaze, hauling the Swiss driver from the wreckage for which he was awarded the George Medal the second highest gallantry decoration that can be conferred to a British civilian.

‘Evolution’? I pointed out that in his psychotic and abnormal preoccupation with ‘The Greatest of all Time’ it may be in his interest to read up on the history of the sport at the very least familiarise himself with Hailwood prior to making an assessment. His response?



Welcome to the one dimensional world that is Valentino Rossi.
In the early Rothmans days I was a huge Doohan fanboy, would watch every race for days afterwards with everyone complaining are you watching that bloody race again? I had the squiggle replica helmet, even tried to emulate his perculiar riding style but on an old battered kwaka gpz550. Eventually got an nsr250 in the Rothmans colours, loved the bike to ride but was aghast at the heavy fuel consumption. But my favourite times were Doohan racing Rainey and Schwantz, once they were gone it just wasn't the same and I even supported Biaggi and Criville against the grumpy tow truck. Ps in Doohans bio he says the Big Bang engine was a drone and too slow to respond vs the wicked screamer, but he thinks it was the adoption of lead free fuel which really killed the fun and the bikes became like big friendly 250's helping the euro riders adapt much faster. I liked Micks solution too, he asked for and got a screamer engine. Honda being Honda bet they weren't too hard to convince, like eh mr Mick you would like more aggressive engine? Shit yeah!

Best rider I've seen though must go to Lawson. Rainey says he chased him for years and just couldn't understand how he was going that fast. Look at the Lawson era, starting against Kenny, Freddie, Mamola, Gardner, then finishing with Doohan, Rainey, Swchantz all the while winning 4 titles. Incredible, you can have 9 or 10 or 11 but it would never eclipse the quality of those 4 at that time, level of competitors and last but not least those wicked 500cc machines.
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June 8th, 2016, 05:15 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by birdman View Post
You called the bitch Vale? Way to go, that proves you are a cool dude after all. I had some bad luck lately with my dogs. I had a great cattle dog that one day pulled his head right out of the collar and jumped out of my ute chasing a roo. I looked for days and never found him, was really bummed until I got another pup recently.

Ps did Vale get rooted by Dani and have a litter of 9 times trophy pups? Ah just messing you're right Sheperds are beautiful dogs.
No, we couldn't let them breed as they were cousins , post a pic of your pup in that thread in the lounge.
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June 8th, 2016, 06:26 AM   #464
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Bandwagon fans support whoever is winning. Rossi's fans attended less races while he was on the Ducati, but they didn't jump to another rider's bandwagon. They support Rossi or they support nobody, that's not how I define bandwagon fans.

If JL struggles on the Ducati and rarely gets on the podium, it'll be interesting to see how loyal his fanbase remains.
I don't use the term bandwagon myself. I (as has been mentioned by LW) see it in terms of Cult Of Personality phenomenon. People prone to this seem to be more focused on the personality- than the actual results. Look at folks who are obsessed with washed up celebrities- like Barbara Streisand, or worse, dead ones like child molester Michael Jackson.


Re: Ducati - all the Hayden fans stuck by him throughout his ordeal there. As Arrib said, it's the underdog thing.
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June 8th, 2016, 07:03 AM   #465
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Best rider I've seen though must go to Lawson. Rainey says he chased him for years and just couldn't understand how he was going that fast. Look at the Lawson era, starting against Kenny, Freddie, Mamola, Gardner, then finishing with Doohan, Rainey, Swchantz all the while winning 4 titles. Incredible, you can have 9 or 10 or 11 but it would never eclipse the quality of those 4 at that time, level of competitors and last but not least those wicked 500cc machines.
Great post and I think I recall you saying that Lawson doesn’t tend to get mentioned on here enough. Similarly I always remember Spies saying that you could follow Valentino, understand what he was doing, but not be able to replicate it. On the other hand, when you followed Stoner you simply couldn’t comprehend what he was doing on a motorcycle or how he was doing it. I think with Lawson, beneath the outwardly seamless, smooth and ostensibly effortless style there was so much more at play. I have always maintained though that the most naturally talented rider I ever saw on a motorcycle was Spencer, but his reputation is blighted by his burnout, the ignominious comeback for Ago’s Yamaha team and the race school fiasco.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but it frustrates me how Valentino’s switch to Yamaha is repeatedly heralded as the singularly greatest achievement in the history of the sport by those wholly ignorant of Lawson’s move to Honda in 1989 which was utterly astonishing and bar the presence of Kanamoto, entirely without the huge concessions, unlimited yen and developmental changes that were availed to Rossi. I also fondly remember the first win on the V592 on a horrendous drying track in Hungary 1992. Having no stake in the Championship, he was able to risk all. Anyone that now attempts to maintain that any iteration of the Cagiva was an easier proposition than the Ducati Gp11 is a deluded ill informed idiot and should be banned from this forum with immediate effect.
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Last edited by Arrabbiata1; June 8th, 2016 at 11:33 PM.
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June 8th, 2016, 07:11 AM   #466
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Yes I watched him win that race with a back of the grid car.

Some of his 1 lap pace was due to him taking risks others would not take, particularly in qualifying, and I would see him as more like MM than Rossi, and like MM I saw him as more reckless/careless of risks to himself and others rather than malicious or calculated in regard to many of the moves for which he was justly criticised. Oddly I think Prost while he has many fewer poles had the advantage in terms of fastest race laps.

Despite Prost's famous and seemingly prophetic statement, it was a mechanical/structural failure which killed him rather any driving error/recklessness however.
In fairness to Senna, the Lotus 97T he drove in 1985 was one of the best cars Gerard Ducarouge designed in his career. It was certainly the best car since the Ligier JS11 he penned in 1979. It was not a back of the grid car by any means. It was a top 6 car that year. The 97T's biggest issue was the fuel thirsty Renault EF4 and EF15 engines it used during 1985. Actually fuel consumption was a huge problem up and down the grid. It also suffered from reliability problems at a number of races. Senna took pole 7 times that year and only had 2 wins to show for it, including what probably would have been an easy Monaco victory if his engine hadn't blown up in the opening laps of the race. In any event, it's racing.

Some of his moves were rather premeditated. He was a big proponent of putting the car in positions where a crash was likely if someone didn't back off first...but he usually left it to the other driver to make that decision. He was a bully on the track, and the only way to get him to back off was to give it right back to him. Nigel Mansell was one of the very few who figured that out.

Prost receives a lot of hate to this day, and was disparaged for his seemingly dull driving style many years ago. But I've made the argument that while both were talented, Prost may have been a far greater driver than Senna. Both were intelligent, but Prost's advantage was his racecraft. He won the 1986 title purely because while having an inferior McLaren to the Williams-Honda FW11, he scored enough points to take a shock world title at Adelaide when the inter-team rivalry at Williams finally cost both drivers the title. Mansell's tire exploding on the Brabham Straight was the end of a Williams driver winning that title. That might be one of the greatest world championship wins across motorsports. The fallout from that season was bad, and it saw Williams lose their exclusive Honda engine supply because of it.
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June 8th, 2016, 07:18 AM   #467
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In fairness to Senna, the Lotus 97T he drove in 1985 was one of the best cars Gerard Ducarouge designed in his career. It was certainly the best car since the Ligier JS11 he penned in 1979. It was not a back of the grid car by any means. It was a top 6 car that year. The 97T's biggest issue was the fuel thirsty Renault EF4 and EF15 engines it used during 1985. Actually fuel consumption was a huge problem up and down the grid. It also suffered from reliability problems at a number of races. Senna took pole 7 times that year and only had 2 wins to show for it, including what probably would have been an easy Monaco victory if his engine hadn't blown up in the opening laps of the race. In any event, it's racing.

Some of his moves were rather premeditated. He was a big proponent of putting the car in positions where a crash was likely if someone didn't back off first...but he usually left it to the other driver to make that decision. He was a bully on the track, and the only way to get him to back off was to give it right back to him. Nigel Mansell was one of the very few who figured that out.

Prost receives a lot of hate to this day, and was disparaged for his seemingly dull driving style many years ago. But I've made the argument that while both were talented, Prost may have been a far greater driver than Senna. Both were intelligent, but Prost's advantage was his racecraft. He won the 1986 title purely because while having an inferior McLaren to the Williams-Honda FW11, he scored enough points to take a shock world title at Adelaide when the inter-team rivalry at Williams finally cost both drivers the title. Mansell's tire exploding on the Brabham Straight was the end of a Williams driver winning that title. That might be one of the greatest world championship wins across motorsports. The fallout from that season was bad, and it saw Williams lose their exclusive Honda engine supply because of it.
I thought it was a Toleman or something he won that first race with.

I was a Prost fan, for the reasons you give. I do agree that Senna did have the approach of let me through or crash, which was the view my brother, a fellow motor sports enthusiast, and I had at the time. As I said I don't think it was really malicious, he just thought it was his right or he had fewer boundaries than others (particularly Prost), which is why I drew parallels with the young MM, who does however seem to be improving and it was revealed this week-end is the one among the top 4 riders/riders on the top 4 bikes who actually attends the safety meetings.
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Last edited by michaelm; June 8th, 2016 at 07:33 AM.
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June 8th, 2016, 07:30 AM   #468
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I recall being at the Donington GP in 2003 I think and I guy stood in front of me at Coppice was wearing a Manchester United shirt, a Ferrari jacket and a VR46 cap. Pretty well covered then - he doubtless had Tiger Woods underpants too. Do these bandwagon jumpers genuinely have no shame? There are Man U fans who despite winning the FA Cup are distraught because they finished fifth. Glory hunters will never understand the satisfaction of rooting for the underdog. It absolutely baffles me blindly supporting someone or subscribing to something with no prior affiliation simply to be on the side of the winner. Utterly bewildering.
That's hilarious that the guy managed to cover all three teams in one shot. Unreal, and not even shocking. I'm sure many of the VR supporters who happened to watch F1 as well were Ferrari fans of the era. Makes me wonder what might have happened had VR actually did that rumored switch from GP to F1. While I always liked Ferrari, I had no love for the team in that era. It was front-running and bandwagoning. A lot of the Ferrari "fans" disappeared once Schumacher was went into his first retirement. I suspect it's going to be many years before they win another title again due to the current technical regulations, but when they do, I fully expect to see all of the dormant bandwagon fans proclaim they were there for it all.

One of the more interesting aspects to fandom that I've never quite understood is how fans can watch a sport for years, and they never seem to gain any real perspective on the given sport. They purely consume it as entertainment, and about the only time they realize it's a little more than that is when a broadcaster puts together some personal interest piece on a team and/or player. Otherwise it's just ignorance to everything. Historical context and significance is more important in motorsport IMO, because of how the rules are constantly evolving on a yearly basis. Since all of us love to assess the riders, drivers, and teams one way or another, the only way to do it since the environment is anything but static, is to look at the larger picture involved, and how the pieces go together. It leaves a bit open to discussion as we see here, but to me high level motorsports are really the only sport I care enough to discuss because of the complexities, and seemingly infinite variables.
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June 8th, 2016, 08:06 AM   #469
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Makes me wonder what might have happened had VR actually did that rumored switch from GP to F1. .
Well that's where I also take exception to this GOAT nonsense when you consider the achievements of Surtees and to a lesser extent on four wheels, Hailwood.

I really applauded Vale for his aspirations to race in F1. As I recall, his times at Valencia in 2006 weren't too shabby but wasn't he in a higher spec car? Also, wasn't he in competition with Massa for the Ferrari seat at one point? His dalliance with WRC also justifiably earned great respect in spite of his encounter with the Welsh flora in 2002. I'm sure that he finished a highly respectable tenth in the same leg in 2008. Also remember him competing in New Zealand. Respect due.
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