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April 30th, 2019, 02:15 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 33 Coupe View Post
I think the answer is pretty simple really. To me it's the tyres. As Jum bought up once or twice, tyres are the most crucial thing to a rider, moreso than the bike itself. Stoner proved a tyre & rider can overcome a mediocre bike when bridgestone developed a tyre to suit the Ducati. As soon as his preference was removed from the allotment, he went from looking like a riding god, to looking like a rider who saw god when the Ducati tried to kill him.

Vinales ended at Suzuki and started at Yamaha with a tyre he was comfortable with, and his results justifiably had him as a contender. Early in the 2017 season, the bullshit rider vote ordered by Dorna on behalf of Rossi, resulted in his tyre preference being removed from the allocation available and his results suffered from that moment on. I'm sorry Mav, but your prefered tyre is unavailable as of now, we all agreed you can't have it. Try this one, we all think it's better than the other one. Thanks.

While I'm not putting Vinales in Stoners company as a rider, I see directly comparible results when their prefered tyre was removed from the available allotment. Both were pretty dominant at the time up until there tyre was removed, then results went south dramatically in comparison. Rossi proved how crucial tyres were when he threw Michelin under the bus in preference to Bridgestone in 2008, then went and beat Stoner to the Championship. Stoner lost his prefered tyre, and Rossi gained a tyre he prefered, and the championship went accordingly.

Pretty simple IMO. IT'S THE TYRES.
I think its the politics of choice that made Rossi unbeatable.
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April 30th, 2019, 02:43 AM   #92
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Rossi has never been unbeatable (except during 2002 on RC211V). But when he hasn't got a tyre he is comfortable with, I would say he is less than competitive. Whenever he is struggling, the tyres have more often than not been his reasoning. Yamaha have had to wear the brunt of the blame recently due to Rossi's tyre machinations last year. He can't really blame the tyre introduced on his behalf during 2017, so the M1 has been the sacrificial lamb since then.

Last edited by 33 Coupe; April 30th, 2019 at 02:47 AM.
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April 30th, 2019, 04:22 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by 33 Coupe View Post
I think the answer is pretty simple really. To me it's the tyres. As Jum bought up once or twice, tyres are the most crucial thing to a rider, moreso than the bike itself. Stoner proved a tyre & rider can overcome a mediocre bike when bridgestone developed a tyre to suit the Ducati. As soon as his preference was removed from the allotment, he went from looking like a riding god, to looking like a rider who saw god when the Ducati tried to kill him.

Vinales ended at Suzuki and started at Yamaha with a tyre he was comfortable with, and his results justifiably had him as a contender. Early in the 2017 season, the bullshit rider vote ordered by Dorna on behalf of Rossi, resulted in his tyre preference being removed from the allocation available and his results suffered from that moment on. I'm sorry Mav, but your prefered tyre is unavailable as of now, we all agreed you can't have it. Try this one, we all think it's better than the other one. Thanks.

While I'm not putting Vinales in Stoners company as a rider, I see directly comparible results when their prefered tyre was removed from the available allotment. Both were pretty dominant at the time up until there tyre was removed, then results went south dramatically in comparison. Rossi proved how crucial tyres were when he threw Michelin under the bus in preference to Bridgestone in 2008, then went and beat Stoner to the Championship. Stoner lost his prefered tyre, and Rossi gained a tyre he prefered, and the championship went accordingly.

Pretty simple IMO. IT'S THE TYRES.
Well . . . not exactly. Yes - Stoner lost that advantage, but unlike Vinales - he did prevail by riding around a coterie of Ducati inadequacies. And unlike Vinales (yes I know you are not making a precise comparison) Stoner went to another manufacturer's bike (on which nobody was regularly competitive) and started (and continued) winning. Even w the pre-control tire B-Stones the Ducati was an overlong, non-cornering pig that had to be strong-armed around corners, which IMHO - a feat that rightly had other more experienced riders scratching their heads and proclaiming "Stoner, he rides like a God." and "I can watch other riders and learn their tricks, but Stoner, I don't get it. No idea how he does that.".
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April 30th, 2019, 05:49 PM   #94
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It's still the tyres to me. I specified I was't comparing Mav to Stoner because clearly they aren't in the same league. Stoner was more adaptable than any rider I have seen, whereas Vinales needs every thing just right. But both suffered greatly when their prefered tyre was taken. Vinales started 2017 on fire on a tyre he liked, but once that tyre was blocked, his results fell through the floor. Since then he has lost confidence & the pressure the press has on him double guessing himself. He was still on the same M1 he was dominant on during testing & the first few rounds, the only thing change was the construction of the tyre. It doesn't get more obvious than that to me. Tyre are that important, moreso to Mav than Stoner.
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April 30th, 2019, 05:58 PM   #95
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Stoner winning on the Honda isn't relative to the tyre debate. Clearly the Honda was a far superior bike than the Ducati, therefore he was able to win despite the tyres available. If Bridgestone developed a tyre more suitable to Casey, I think we might have seen domination similar to, or surpassing, what we see with MM the last few years.
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April 30th, 2019, 07:00 PM   #96
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The conversation became revived here with speculation about whether Vinales would have flourished had he stayed at Suzuki. And much has been made of various factors being blamed for his inability to consistently compete for a spot on the podium - so your comparison to Stoner to my mind rightly implies that the fault is largely with Vinales rather than his equipment or his team.

While it's true the Honda had great advantages over the Ducati when Stoner was riding - perspective on just how much better it was, has evolved, in light of how few riders have had consistent top tier results on it (the Honda) post 2006. It was, most will agree, not nearly as rider friendly as the Yamaha. Over time I think, Pedrosa's multiple wins on the Honda will be recognized as being even that much more impressive.
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