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April 20th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
My opinion is that Toni Elias's win on 'special' tyres PROVES that they worked for riders other than your favourite 'hate' target, so again, no point proven...
No point proven in a statement you say proves something? Are you familiar with the word: contradiction?

Let me use your own standard of proof and logic against you then. First of all, you say Elias wining on SNS "proves" others could benefit.

You say SNS "proved" they are win capable tires in the hands of others, so it does prove something.

Now let's try to apply 'logic' to your statement:

By design, those tires were never made to compete against Rossi by Toni Elias, this incident PROVES this fact, therefore, logically Rossiís rivals were not supposed to compete with tires they could win against him other than a fluke, which this incident illustrates.

Let's recap:

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the guy who won on these tires was never supposed to use them by design.

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the SNS tailored tires were useless for the person they were designed for, Dani Pedrosa, and by fluke proved to be useful for a rider that was not supposed to use them.

Proof, logic, reality. Don't confuse these concepts.
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April 20th, 2016, 12:26 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
No point proven in a statement you say proves something? Are you familiar with the word: contradiction?

Let me use your own standard of proof and logic against you then. First of all, you say Elias wining on SNS "proves" others could benefit.

You say SNS "proved" they are win capable tires in the hands of others, so it does prove something.

Now let's try to apply 'logic' to your statement:

By design, those tires were never made to compete against Rossi by Toni Elias, this incident PROVES this fact, therefore, logically Rossiís rivals were not supposed to compete with tires they could win against him other than a fluke, which this incident illustrates. ��

Let's recap:

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the guy who won on these tires was never supposed to use them by design.

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the SNS tailored tires were useless for the person they were designed for, Dani Pedrosa, and by fluke proved to be useful for a rider that was not supposed to use them.

Proof, logic, reality. Don't confuse these concepts.
You should be a lawyer , you certainly have skills in turning theoretical truths into 'reality', consider this... If Dani had taken those special's he may never had slid off taking #69 out with him, just a thought
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April 20th, 2016, 02:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
I don't think I ever dismissed any other riders achievements, they're all good, I just don't like what I'm seeing on this forum in respect to VR, he has earned all his championships by being the best rider of the years when he won, not because of SNS etc.
My reply wasn't to you.

It has gotten pretty vicious against Rossi on this very small corner of the internet, on the basis of absolutely incontrovertible repeated public statements by Rossi dismissing the 2015 championship as stolen from him, taken up en masse by his fans, and followed similar dismissal of the championship wins by other riders in 2006 and 2007, and of Stoner's 2011 title as being down to equipment by pretty much the same people.

Stoner actually said in his book and elsewhere that the attitude of a certain element among the fan base was significant in his disenchantment with the sport, and MM has made recent direct statements about the power Rossi derives from his large fan base and its use by him to his advantage against his rivals.

Last edited by michaelm; April 21st, 2016 at 01:11 AM.
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April 20th, 2016, 02:28 PM   #64
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My reply wasn't to you.

iIt has gotten pretty vicious against Rossi on this very small corner of the Internet, on the basis of absolutely icontrovertible repeated public statements by Rossi dismissing the 2015 championship as stolen from him, taken up en masse by his fans, and followed similar dismissal of the championship wins by other riders in 2006 and 2007, and of Stoner's 2011 title as being down to equipment by pretty much the same people.

Stoner actually said in his book and elsewhere that the attitude of a certain element among the fan base was significant in his disenchantment with the sport, and MM has made recent direct statements about the power Rossi derives from his large fan base and its use by him to his advantage against his rivals.
Ok fair enough point. I suggest Marc should have a bake sale, bbq event, open a comic book store, walk door to door with his business card, etc., in order to up his fan base and thus derive his own powerful influence.
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April 20th, 2016, 02:37 PM   #65
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Ok fair enough point. I suggest Marc should have a bake sale, bbq event, open a comic book store, walk door to door with his business card, etc., in order to up his fan base and thus derive his own powerful influence.
That is not the point at all. The precise point made by MM was fundamentally that whoever has the largest fan base shouldn't matter when the riders are actually racing. He had no complaint about Rossi having a large fan base, just how they act and how they are manipulated to his advantage by Rossi.

Your attempted witticism about MM is rather revealing about your real attitude btw, and rather at odds with your very recent contention about respecting the other riders

Last edited by michaelm; April 20th, 2016 at 03:17 PM.
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April 20th, 2016, 02:41 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
You should be a lawyer , you certainly have skills in turning theoretical truths into 'reality', consider this... If Dani had taken those special's he may never had slid off taking #69 out with him, just a thought
I have considered this question long before you posed it. However, I do not believe Pedrosa's crash was a problem with 'tires' (this is afterall the crux of our discussion) but rather as Kropo put it, "an act of vindictive self-assertion". Pedrosa was blinded by ambition, wedging his bike too hot into a space where there was none; crashing both out was not a tire failure but an illustration of human failure.
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April 20th, 2016, 02:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
I have considered this question long before you posed it. However, I do not believe Pedrosa's crash was a problem with 'tires' (this is afterall the crux of our discussion) but rather as Kropo put it, "an act of vindictive self-assertion". Pedrosa was blinded by ambition, wedging his bike too hot into a space where there was none; crashing both out was not a tire failure but an illustration of human failure.


Ianonne anyone (sorry Sparrow ...... he stuffed up on this one )

The Dovi/Hayden and Ianonne/Dovi incidents are strikingly similar (remove the championship standings) where I suspect that a rider made a decision to go for a gap that was not really there and subsequently bought their team mates down (and let us not forget Miller/Cal last year in the wet)

That said however, I suspect we would not be having the discussion if the falling rider was not the team mate
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April 20th, 2016, 02:52 PM   #68
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Ianonne anyone (sorry Sparrow ...... he stuffed up on this one )

The Dovi/Hayden and Ianonne/Dovi incidents are strikingly similar (remove the championship standings) where I suspect that a rider made a decision to go for a gap that was not really there and subsequently bought their team mates down (and let us not forget Miller/Cal last year in the wet)

That said however, I suspect we would not be having the discussion if the falling rider was not the team mate
Absolutely not. Iannone/Dovizioso was a world different than Pedrosa/Hayden.

A turd may look "strikingly similar" to Snickers bar, until you bite into it.
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April 20th, 2016, 03:00 PM   #69
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Absolutely not. Iannone/Dovizioso was a world different than Pedrosa/Hayden.

A turd may look "strikingly similar" to Snickers bar, until you bite into it.

But that is where your sense of smell is useful


And to me, of course they were similar incidents ......... both young riders fucked up because of blind ambition to beat their team mate at all costs without reconciling the situation that was in front of them and whether the move was likely to succeed or fail with both leaving no margin of error.

Neither were deliberate in the action and both had the same end results - falls for all 4 involved.

Sure Ianonne is more experienced in MotoGP than was Pedrosa at the time but DP was a multiple times world champion across multiple categories - both fucked up.
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April 20th, 2016, 03:04 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Gaz View Post
But that is where your sense of smell is useful


And to me, of course they were similar incidents ......... both young riders fucked up because of blind ambition to beat their team mate at all costs without reconciling the situation that was in front of them and whether the move was likely to succeed or fail with both leaving no margin of error.

Neither were deliberate in the action and both had the same end results - falls for all 4 involved.

Sure Ianonne is more experienced in MotoGP than was Pedrosa at the time but DP was a multiple times world champion across multiple categories - both fucked up.
You may want to see a doctor about your olfaction sense then.

I disagree. Iannone was not making a passing attempt, he was attempting to guard his flank from a possible Jerez 05.

Pedrosa was something utterly different.
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