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April 20th, 2016, 09:32 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
We might stop doing it when you guys stop dismissing the achievements of other riders, particularly their championships, which certainly has been going on for more than a decade now, culminating in extreme fashion last year including outrageous unsubstantiated claims by Rossi himself which continued through the off season.

I personally don't think the SNS tyres were much if at all an advantage over the other top, and hence also SNS equipped, Michelin riders, and have never seen a complaint about them from his main rivals in that era, being Biaggi, Gibernau and Hayden. I think it is indisputable those tyres existed, that only riders from the top teams got them, that Rossi had considerable input into their formulation by the testimony of his own team-mate, that they didn't suit Colin Edwards himself, and that they didn't suit Dani Pedrosa on one occasion. Edwards was a superbike rider however, Biaggi, Gibernau and Rossi from a 250 background.
I don't think I ever dismissed any other riders achievements, they're all good, I just don't like what I'm seeing on this forum in respect to VR, he has earned all his championships by being the best rider of the years when he won, not because of SNS etc.
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April 20th, 2016, 09:36 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Aw Mang View Post
Lol do you even try to understand what you read before you open your mouth? The point is the tire was cooked to Rossi formula and that should give him the advantage over other riders. Pedrosa couldn't use Rossi tires but Toni Elias got his hands on the Rossi tires at Estoril and we know what happened.
I understand what I read, don't need to try too hard bud !
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April 20th, 2016, 09:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
I don't think I ever dismissed any other riders achievements, they're all good, I just don't like what I'm seeing on this forum in respect to VR, he has earned all his championships by being the best rider of the years when he won, not because of SNS etc.
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
I understand what I read, don't need to try too hard bud !
While you're selectively reading, did you get the part where Dennis Noyes and Toby Moody, both exceptionally respected MotoGP journalist, mention that Pedrosa discarded SNS tires, tires that are supposedly tailored for him? How does that logic exactly work, have you thought about this? SNS are "tailored" tires, according to Michelin. You "read" that right? After all, you're pigging backing on Mig's indication of "proof" they exited for other riders, therefore, your "reading" must lead you to the logical assumption that Rossi wasn't the only one that enjoyed "tailored for him" tires. HOWEVER, you just read an account by respected journalist recounting that Pedrosa rejected tires supposedly tailored for him? Reading of words is one thing, discerning their meaning 'poves' to be quite a different challenge.

You may continue to think Rossi "won" his titles without a distinct advantage in regards to "tailored" tires, but you'd be naive and wrong to think so. In that very article you cite along with Migs, Michelin mentioned: "Riding style has a lot of effect on tire choice, much more so than in car racing." In other words, tires are of paramount importance, one could say it decides race winners and losers. Michelin also talks in that article as if there was a realistic tire war, patting itself on the back for their success, yet they were in realistic terms a defacto single tire suppliers without the restriction of providing a 'spec tire'. Do you understand the significance?
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April 20th, 2016, 09:56 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by tps7c View Post
Ok, so if multiple riders were being tailored to, such as Dani, then it's clear they weren't just tailoring these tires to one man. Even though he is the greatest man to ever walk the planet.

This is hilarious! You, like Migs and Daniboy have missed the entire SIGNIFICANCE of WHY Pedros REJECTED THE 'TAILORED' TIRES!
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Last edited by Jumkie; April 20th, 2016 at 10:16 AM.
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April 20th, 2016, 10:04 AM   #55
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Perhaps your understanding of it is flawed, or just plain wrong. The tyres were requested by other riders, not just Rossi , so they had just as much chance of an advantage as he had! If you want to provide some indisputable proof such as timesheets from Friday Saturday Sunday for the various races in question, be my guest.
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Last edited by danski; April 20th, 2016 at 10:15 AM. Reason: punctuation
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April 20th, 2016, 10:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
This is hilarious! You, like Migs and Daniboy have missed the entire SIGNIFICANCE of WHY Pedros REJECTED THE 'TAILORED' TIRES!
Because he didn't like them? So I'm suggesting that just because they tailored them towards Dani, doesn't necessarily mean that they "nailed" it. It also doesn't mean that because they didn't work for Dani that they were based on a design for Rossi.
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April 20th, 2016, 10:17 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Perhaps your understanding of it is flawed, or just plain wrong. The tyres were requested by other riders, not just Rossi , so they had just as much chance of an advantage as he had! If you want to provide some indisputable proof such as timesheets from Friday Saturday Sunday for the various races in question, be my guest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tps7c View Post
Because he didn't like them? So I'm suggesting that just because they tailored them towards Dani, doesn't necessarily mean that they "nailed" it. It also doesn't mean that because they didn't work for Dani that they were based on a design for Rossi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gekko1ro View Post
ok, another link, with a different tale, this time is Kropotkin writing. the fourth paragraph is:
quote: "In this case, Elias was handed a set of ‘Saturday night specials’ destined for Dani Pedrosa, but which Pedrosa had elected not to use, and so were going spare. Elias liked the same kind of soft carcass tire that Pedrosa was being offered, and went on to exploit the advantage it offered."

Friday Summary at Qatar: The Myth of Fairness & Aleix Espargaro's One-Man Revolution - Asphalt & Rubber
This was the quote I was looking for, thanks, great find. A couple of things I'd like to highlight:

#1: Pedrosa rejected tires supposedly 'tailored for HIM". This flys in the face of those arguing that other riders got tailor made tires with them in mind. Migs said based on the Michelin statement (as if they were going to admit to providing unfair advantages) that it proved others got tires tailored to them. YET, Pedrosa rejected these tires and elected to use....wait for it, tires that were NOT tailored for him! Logical? Why would he do that? Maybe because the tires were tailored, yes, but SUITED someone else? That would certainly make sense.

#2: Those tires were NOT destined for TONI ELIAS, and they were NOT 'TAILORED" for TONI ELIAS. This is a matter of FACT. Not conspiracy or conjecture. However here is another FACT: Toni Elias won the race on these exact tires! Tires that otherwise were NOT destined for Toni Elias, and quite possibly decided the 2006 World Championship! (Stop, if you are reading this, and consider this last statement.) It is quite reasonable and probable that Toni Elias would not have won the Estoril race, and Valentino Rossi would have been a further 5 points up going into Valencia, 5 points was in fact the margin that decided the 2006 championship!

#3: Notice that these 'tailored' "Saturday Night Specials" were described as going "spare". That means they were not going to be used. A small twist of fait, they ended up on Toni Elias' wheels. Multiple this times several years of having 'tailor" made tires for Valentino Rossi. Is there still any doubt in a person capable of reading these word, with the minimal capacity to reason, that this did not translate into a real advantage that decided championships?
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April 20th, 2016, 10:25 AM   #58
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Well there's obviously no doubt in your mind, but if it was a prosecution case it would be thrown out of court as convictions are NOT made on hearsay...
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April 20th, 2016, 10:39 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Daniboy View Post
Well there's obviously no doubt in your mind, but if it was a prosecution case it would be thrown out of court as convictions are NOT made on hearsay...
Convictions are made on far less! You're obviously not familiar with the "justice" system.

We are both convinced for are position, that is clear. However, you stated you "read" and concluded there is no evidence for Rossi's advantages. Yet, you are "reading" accounts by three journalists who reported the tires Toni Elias used to win his only unlikely race, did so on tires not made for him. This is a fact. This means that despite you "reading" the words, you seem to be missing the profound meaning which is as follows: Rossi’s would-be rivals were often eliminated the day before the race on account of not getting the preferred tire.

Do you think Toni Elias would have won that fateful race in Estoril 2006 had Pedrosa's SNS stayed in the garage? I don't. Again, that means untold occasions that would-be race contenders were eliminate before they even lined up on the grid! How are you missing this?

Last edited by Jumkie; April 20th, 2016 at 10:51 AM.
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April 20th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #60
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My opinion is that Toni Elias's win on 'special' tyres proves that they worked for riders other than your favourite 'hate' target, so again, no point proven...
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