MotoGP Forum  

Go Back   MotoGP Forum > MotoGP Forum > MotoGP

MotoGP MotoGP Forum - MotoGP Class Motorcycle Racing Forum


Like Tree97Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
July 22nd, 2015, 10:59 AM   #41
Blue Smoker
 
Arrabbiata1's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
From: Out of Nowhere

Posts: 6,911
Likes: 2579

I Ride: The original
Quote:
Originally Posted by levigarrett View Post

I've flown the Boeing 737,757 and 767. Never the 777. I'm 100% confident I could get it around the patch without bending it but it wouldn't be graceful. Physical adaptation is what it is. Time is required to adjust.
What about a prehistoric 727? or a late 1950's 707 138? - lacking in sophisticated modern technology. Genuinely interested here.
Arrabbiata1 is offline  
 
July 22nd, 2015, 11:48 AM   #42
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2013
From: Inside my body

Posts: 215
Likes: 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
What about a prehistoric 727? or a late 1950's 707 138? - lacking in sophisticated modern technology. Genuinely interested here.
Good question. I'll add to it. Whats your opinion of Boeing vs Airbus vs Embraer.
Also how difficult a feat was it to fly into the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon with no previous flying experience?
SuperManatee is offline  
July 22nd, 2015, 11:52 AM   #43
Blue Smoker
 
Arrabbiata1's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
From: Out of Nowhere

Posts: 6,911
Likes: 2579

I Ride: The original
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperManatee View Post
Good question. I'll add to it. Whats your opinion of Boeing vs Airbus vs Embraer.
Also how difficult a feat was it to fly into the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon with no previous flying experience?
...I suspected as much
Arrabbiata1 is offline  
July 22nd, 2015, 11:55 AM   #44
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2009
From: California

Posts: 1,452
Likes: 556

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrabbiata1 View Post
What about a prehistoric 727? or a late 1950's 707 138? - lacking in sophisticated modern technology. Genuinely interested here.
Would be measurably harder but doable. Both those aircraft require a 3rd pilot. Interestingly, Boeing for better or worse has maintained a relatively straight development path (that stopped at the 787) leaving a bizarre number of familiar components on the flight deck. Operating philosophy is strangely in line with the predecessors but the biggest obstacle would be the lack of sophistication in the powerplant management and flight management systems. I used to fly the 737-300 Classic which was quite similar to the older Boeing variants...I hated it! It was like stepping back in time.

Boeing has done this purposely. By maintaining cockpit/operating philosophies so uniformly throughout the years, they've managed to persuade regulating agencies around the world to allow fairly generous "common type" designations reducing training costs and allowing pilots to simultaneously operate fleet variants. Example, when I was flying the 757/767 pilots operated the 757-200, 757-300, 767-200 and 767-400 as a single fleet despite the considerable differences between them. The 767-400 has a 777 flight deck but the way you "fly the jet" is remarkably similar.

Airbus is an entirely different animal. I'd be really lost up there. Nothing about it is familiar to me or any Boeing only guy. They went in an entirely different direction philosophically.
Gaz and Dr No like this.

Last edited by levigarrett; July 22nd, 2015 at 12:10 PM.
levigarrett is offline  
July 22nd, 2015, 12:02 PM   #45
Blue Smoker
 
Arrabbiata1's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
From: Out of Nowhere

Posts: 6,911
Likes: 2579

I Ride: The original
Quote:
Originally Posted by levigarrett View Post
Would be measurably harder but doable. Both those aircraft require a 3rd pilot. Interestingly, Boeing for better or worse has maintained a relatively straight development path (that stopped at the 787) leaving a bizarre number of familiar components on the flight deck. Operating philosophy is strangely in line with the predecessors but the biggest obstacle would be the lack of sophistication in the powerplant management and flight management systems. I used to fly the 737-300 Classic which was quite similar to the older Boeing variants...I hated it! It was like stepping back in time.

Boeing has done this purposely. By maintaining cockpit/operating philosophies so uniformly throughout the years, they've managed to persuade regulating agencies around the world to allow fairly generous "common type" designations reducing training costs and allowing pilots to simultaneously operate fleet variants. Example, when I was flying the 757/767 pilots operated the 757-200, 757-300, 767-200 and 767-400 as a single fleet despite the considerable differences between them. The 767-400 has a 777 flight deck but the way you "fly the jet" is remarkably similar.

Airbus is an entirely different animal. I'd be really lost up there. Noting about it is familiar to me or any Boeing only guy. They went in an entirely different direction philosophically.
Fascinating as ever...genuinely, thank you.

I was aware that the Airbus paradigm was radically different to Boeing - and also that older cockpits so to speak, required a flight engineer to manage such things as hydraulics, fuel and electrical systems. But what of the McDonnell Douglas aircraft? Did the controls of a DC8 markedly differ to a 707?
Arrabbiata1 is offline  
July 22nd, 2015, 12:07 PM   #46
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2009
From: California

Posts: 1,452
Likes: 556

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperManatee View Post
Good question. I'll add to it. Whats your opinion of Boeing vs Airbus vs Embraer.
Also how difficult a feat was it to fly into the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon with no previous flying experience?
Airbus is like learning another language and an entirely new set of social customs at once. It's an undertaking but there are things I admire about the airframe. I have about 5000 hours in the Embraer 145. I enjoyed it. I think Embraer is a great company. Build quality isn't what you'd find on Airbus or Boeing equipment but they're competent and they've carved out a niche market. They don't manufacture the avionics suite. Avionics manufacturers (Collins, Smith, Honeywell, etc) work with the manufacturer to design industry standard philosophies that work in tandem with the design goals of the airframe. That makes them very similar to what you'd find on other flight decks (except EMB has that goofy style control column borrowed from the Brits).

9-11 had perfect weather. VFR everywhere making their task much easier. That being said, still not easy to pull off. Taking an airplane in cruise and flying it somewhere else doesn't require the more difficult tasks of energy management and configuration changes but does require a familiarity with basic navigation.

I've had minimally trained rookie pilots in the simulator with me (family and friends) and while we don't do "for fun" 9-11 runs, I'm certain most of them could hit a 1200ft tall building in VFR conditions if necessary.
levigarrett is offline  
July 22nd, 2015, 12:15 PM   #47
Senior Member
 
Jumkie's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
From: Your Mom's House

Posts: 24,726
Likes: 3980

Quote:
Originally Posted by MigsAngel View Post
So from reading the follow up posts....unless Nicky is offered a factory ride on the Kawasaki or Aprilia or the Ducati then you dont believe he can win the title in his maiden year in the WSBK series...and that before any more excuses are added in...such as not being used to Pirellis, 'new' tracks, and having re-learn to ride a Superbike, etc, etc......

At the same time, it seems some of you are saying a Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha ride (lets assume they are factory backed rides) aren't sufficient because someone else hasn't already done all the development to make those bikes into winners... it seems to me that if Nicky is a 'top' rider then development is his responsibility for 'inferior' machinery....
Or is Nicky simply not capable of developing a bike to win the the WSBK title?

Let me ask a different question....if Nicky gets the Ducati, Aprilia or a Kawasaki top flight ride in his maiden year in WSBK will he win the title, yes or no?
Short answer: ZX10 in its current state, yes. PanigaleR in its current state, yes. RSV4 in its current state, no.

We are simply speculating, right? So here is the extended version of my answer:

Good questions Migs. As a Rossi fan, I think you can appreciate the effect it might have on a rider who has been cruising around on inferior machinery. Rossi, the greatest of all time, wasn't able to win straight away when Carmelo cleared the path for his return to the factory M1, which entitles the rider to a 1 in 4 championship contending machine. Consider that he was only gone from the M1 for 2 years. Let's shelve VR's performance on the Ducati (which was a machine that had won races and scored podiums the previous year) as you are probably well aware, Heisman, Gaz, Michaelm, JPLotus, AntG, Kesh and others completely rehashed that episode, no need for us to repeat here. But consider that Rossi's performance was dismal on his return to a machine (M1) that was an absolute contender in 2013.

In GP, as opposed to WSBK, the parity picture is fairly straight forward, the 2 factory Yamahas and Hondas are the championship machines, if you are on one of those, you got a 1:4 chance of winning the title, period. The odds get better when 1 of those 4 riders has problems, as you see today, its basically a 1:2 deal, not dissimilar to what happened in 2013 when both Lorenzo and Pedrosa broke their clavicles, at which point you would have thought VR would have come in a comfortable runner-up, which did not happen. To support the idea that the M1 was a title contending machine, Lorenzo came within 5 points of winning on it in 2013, the same bike Valentino (the standard of awesome) simultaneously rode. Valentino Rossi, again the greatest of all time, wasn't able to win the title in 2014 either, while of course riding on a title contending bike with the odds being 1:4. I'm reminding you of these facts to build a case that even you could appreciate the difficulty an excellent rider such as Nicky might experience to win a title straight away in WSBK; if even the absolute standard of greatness (VR) has experienced difficulty, which let's be honest, you are asking in such a way to present your peculiar opinion of Nicky, which I'm ok with, but I'm just using your guy as a parallel, you still with me?

The parity picture is far less clear in WSBK, unlike GP, because it ebbs and flows with less predictability. From Ducati to Honda, to Suzuki to Kawasaki to Aprillia and even BMW at one point trade parity not just any given season, but even within/during the season. Not just the factory efforts, but so to the satellites/privateer teams as you may recall with Athea Ducati, dominating over Xerox Ducati with Checa, and Ten Kate with Hannspree verses Ten Kate with Pata were far different animals as opposed to the Castro Honda days.

So, I do think Nicky could win a title in WSBK, but that would be assuming a healthy Nicky on a contending machine. If not on the first year aboard a ZX-10 (as it sits currently at the top of the parity table), then certainly in a couple of years getting to grips with a RSV4 or PanigaleR. Notwithstanding Arrabi's smug grin as I'm imagining it, Jrea is probably the best rider at the moment, not just because he is on the best bike, but in reference to his performance on the Pata CBR1K. I don't believe (yes I concede bias opinion) that Chaz, Sykes, nor Haslam are better talented riders than Nicky Hayden. Think in your minds eye, would these fellas fair any better on the RCV-RS than Nicky is doing now? By the same token, I don't see Nicky fairing much worse than these blokes on their respective machines after a year in WSBK. Again, lots of factors to consider, confidence, experience, health, familiarity, etc. Just so you know, I consider Haslam to be a top rider, and he's proved it despite being beat by Melandri and JRead while on same machinery, but you see him there today on a decent RSV4 contending for podiums and wins. Do you think he is a better rider than Hayden? How about Chaz or Sykes? I just don't see it Migs.

Again, all just speculation. But I'll finish by saying this, Nicky never said publicly that he would even consider WSBK up until a few years ago. So his heart is in GP, even on a shit machine. I asked him the this very question at a Ducati meet and greet, and it was the first time I had ever heard him be open to a SBK stint. At this point as LeviG said, it might be too late. The damage has already been done to body, confidence, prestige, marketability, age, etc.
Keshav, Arrabbiata1, #22 and 1 others like this.

Last edited by Jumkie; July 22nd, 2015 at 01:51 PM.
Jumkie is offline  
July 22nd, 2015, 11:50 PM   #48
#22
Senior Member
 
#22's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
From: In Cider

Posts: 3,995
Likes: 1771

Good post Jum, however I will throw one spanner into the works just for debate, and that spanner is: Eugene Laverty.

I'm not fussed about Laverty either way, but he was WSBK runner up in 2013 on the Aprilia before he was shuffled out to make way for Melandri, and this year it doesn't seem like Nicky is blowing him away on similar equipment.

That said, I'd LOVE for Hayden to go and win a WSBK title.
#22 is offline  
July 23rd, 2015, 12:30 AM   #49
Senior Member
 
MigsAngel's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
From: UK

Posts: 2,599
Likes: 271

I Ride: 675...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
Short answer: ZX10 in its current state, yes. PanigaleR in its current state, yes. RSV4 in its current state, no.

....

Again, all just speculation. But I'll finish by saying this, Nicky never said publicly that he would even consider WSBK up until a few years ago. So his heart is in GP, even on a shit machine. I asked him the this very question at a Ducati meet and greet, and it was the first time I had ever heard him be open to a SBK stint. At this point as LeviG said, it might be too late. The damage has already been done to body, confidence, prestige, marketability, age, etc.
So the short short version.....unless Nicky gets the best of best he cant or wont win the WSBK title in his maiden year......and the only way he can win the title is by having a couple years of development the (insert factory name here) bike .... however that development wouldn't come from Nicky but from the preceding riders on that same (insert factory name here) bike....

I tend to agree with LeviG as well.....it is too late for Nicky.....and i will add that i hope Nicky is smart enough to see it too...again i expect there will be an announcement by him at Indy about his future ....
MigsAngel is offline  
July 23rd, 2015, 06:48 AM   #50
Senior Member
 
Jumkie's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
From: Your Mom's House

Posts: 24,726
Likes: 3980

Quote:
Originally Posted by MigsAngel View Post
So the short short version.....unless Nicky gets the best of best he cant or wont win the WSBK title in his maiden year......and the only way he can win the title is by having a couple years of development the (insert factory name here) bike .... however that development wouldn't come from Nicky but from the preceding riders on that same (insert factory name here) bike....

I tend to agree with LeviG as well.....it is too late for Nicky.....and i will add that i hope Nicky is smart enough to see it too...again i expect there will be an announcement by him at Indy about his future ....
Basically yes, you've summarized my thoughts. Its just how racing works I guess, only the riders on top machines seem to win titles. You simply need a contending bike, then do the business on it. Look at 2006, Nicky wasn't the only one on a race winning motorcycle (count the race winners), but he had ultra consistency on it. Always on or near the podium for much of the season which would have included Estriol as well. You can't win titles on winning machines if you crash or have mechanicals on them. Look at Marquez today, absolutely on a title contending bike. One little supposed machine hiccup and he crashed out of 3 rounds.

But again as I said, it's probably too late for Nicky. Though Biaggi and Checa give me hope that even a relic and a 'mediocre' GP transplant can win a Wsbk title if the conditions are right.

Last edited by Jumkie; July 23rd, 2015 at 09:12 AM.
Jumkie is offline  
Reply

  MotoGP Forum > MotoGP Forum > MotoGP

Tags
hayden, wsbk



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hayden has offers to WSBK povol World Superbike 13 July 20th, 2013 08:19 AM
RL Hayden to WSBK povol World Superbike 44 January 15th, 2010 01:45 PM
Could Stoner or Hayden replace Bayliss as the Ducati WSBK King? #22 MotoGP 26 November 16th, 2008 01:33 PM
Is Hayden's Ego getting the best of him?? Sheri MotoGP 150 February 15th, 2007 05:46 AM
Hayden tinks MotoGP 203 February 4th, 2007 01:04 PM


Facebook Twitter Google+ RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2018 Powerslide. All rights reserved.
MotoGP Forum is a MotoGP enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent MotoGP or Dorna Sports, S.L. of Madrid, Spain.