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June 17th, 2013, 07:50 AM   #91
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You're right, in any form of racing your team mate is the first person you want to pass and the main person you have to do so without taking out. That's pretty much a given. I also agree Dani made that bike almost impossible to pass, he showed us the art of defensive riding and he had me hooked. I was in part hoping Marc would have a go just to see if he could actually make it, but at the same time applauding Dani's ability to keep him behind. That in itself is a skill which is admirable.





See after his mistake when they almost touched wheels Marc dropped back but was on the back of Pedrosa's bike again so damn fast it proved he was the much faster rider at that point. I was waiting for the banzai move on the last corner but it didn't happen. Was it because it was his team mate ahead and he's thinking of the championship and the reaction of the team if he took them both out? Or was it because he was scared of landing up in the gravel again? I suppose only he will ever know the answer to that, could have been a bit of both I suppose. I still tend to believe if it had been anyone else he might just have gone for it, only the fact it was Pedrosa stopped him for whatever reason but unless Marc says different, that's my view and I'm sticking to it

If you haven't already seen it, which I'm sure you have, watch Valentino on his team mate Lorenzo at that corner in 2009. A clinical diagnosis and dissection of the opponent by the Doctor -executed with surgical precision. One of the greatest - if not the greatestlast lap/corner moves I have ever seen in the history of motorsport because it was so beautifully planned, exquisitelytimed and so incredibly difficult to deliver. Plus, Jorge left a slight opening..Dani did not. This is not the last corner at Jerez. You do not make desperate lunges or simply 'barge past'. Likeyou say, Marc easily redressed the gap that he created by locking the front..he clearly had the speed and even at times seemed stronger on the brakes than Dani. He lacked the rythym and ultimately the cumulative drive to get by. At Jerez - a much slower corner, Jorge left the door wide open - and Marc stuck his foot in it. Forget the last corner..on Sunday Dani slammed it resoundingly shut...it wasn't possible to as you say'go for it' without crashing..Marc knew that - but I might be willing to concede, perhaps rued earlier missed opportunities where he had closed Dani down.
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June 17th, 2013, 08:01 AM   #92
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Good analysis.... You know MM learned a lot sitting behind Pedrosa,he will takethat and apply them to his repertoire.
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June 17th, 2013, 08:18 AM   #93
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Sorry Arabb, and I don't usually do this but I'm going to disagree and argue my point here. I've watched racing long enough to understand what I saw.





Sure, you're right, Marquez was desperate to get by Pedrosa and I'm sure he was furious that he hadn't made it by him at the end. That I totally agree with you about. However, he's known as a rider who will take risks and barge by other riders, yet although he was clearly faster and probably could have caught Lorenzo if Dani wasn't in his way, he didn't barge by him simply because it was his team mate in front of him, anyone else and he would have just gone for it as he did when he and Lorenzo came together a few races back. He knows he has to make a clean move on his team mate, if he doesn't the team will make him sorry for it, so with Dani he has to be that bit more careful. I truly believe that is what I saw him doing.





Of course that is a matter of opinion and that's mine, I'm not saying you're wrong, just we don't agree on it, you and Phill see it in a different way is all.

Lyria i agree and will go further, he was so obviously faster than Danny but failed to pass i am convinced he is under team orders and will help Danny win the title,the sham of a race on sunday between the team mates was so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it,HRC have done this before (Taddy/Mick) and to be honest it sucks,unless Danny has a crash or a very bad day Mark will not go for the win,i fully expect to get a shit fest for this but lets look at it at the end of the season.
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June 17th, 2013, 08:25 AM   #94
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Lyria i agree and will go further, he was so obviously faster than Danny but failed to pass i am convinced he is under team orders and will help Danny win the title,the sham of a race on sunday between the team mates was so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it,HRC have done this before (Taddy/Mick) and to be honest it sucks,unless Danny has a crash or a very bad day Mark will not go for the win,i fully expect to get a shit fest for this but lets look at it at the end of the season.

It will certianly be interesting to see if Marquez gets in front of Danny at the start how the race will progress between them.
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June 17th, 2013, 08:25 AM   #95
 
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...Marquez flung everything he had at Dani. Watch the race again, and watch his reaction when he crossed the line. He was disgusted with himself. He knows he can match Dani's speed..perhaps at this stage not always his poise, rythym or finesse..and certainly not his guille. Like I said, that will come. Had he not locked and almost lost the front to avoid tagging Dani given his higher closing speed, I believe he would have finished second yesterday.




I wish I had your ability to dissect the race, but despite years of watching, mostly I sit there with mouth open, stuffing pizza n to catch the drool .





I do wonder, watching Pedrosa this year, whether he learned something from Stoner, with regard to putting the RC into 'strange' shapes, and by seeing just what the bike can do in the hands of someone that didn't read the rulebook? In previous seasons he took the 'right' line, trying to make the perfect lap and if fast enough, he would win. This year (and towards the end of last season), he seems to be able to step it up when needed - to pull a move that might have been risky and that he would have avoided in the past.





I guess what I am trying to say is, he seems to have thrown caution a bit windward. Whereas in previous years he would play the statistical game of hitting the right line and managing his race through consistancy, now he seems to be willing to make a bad corner, in order to be tactically 'better' (if that makes sense?). With someone like Marquez chewing at his heels, it may be his salvation.
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June 17th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #96
 
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thedeal
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Lyria i agree and will go further, he was so obviously faster than Danny but failed to pass i am convinced he is under team orders and will help Danny win the title,the sham of a race on sunday between the team mates was so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it,HRC have done this before (Taddy/Mick) and to be honest it sucks,unless Danny has a crash or a very bad day Mark will not go for the win,i fully expect to get a shit fest for this but lets look at it at the end of the season.




I'm not willing to say that team orders are not the case, but I can't honestly say that I saw that Marquez was "so obviously faster' - it hasn't stopped him passing him before. It looked to me like Pedrosa had his measure. He certainly got the thing pointed and shot out of those corners like a bullet.
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June 17th, 2013, 09:31 AM   #97
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Lyria
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3540121371471186

Sorry Arabb, and I don't usually do this but I'm going to disagree and argue my point here. I've watched racing long enough to understand what I saw.





Sure, you're right, Marquez was desperate to get by Pedrosa and I'm sure he was furious that he hadn't made it by him at the end. That I totally agree with you about. However, he's known as a rider who will take risks and barge by other riders, yet although he was clearly faster and probably could have caught Lorenzo if Dani wasn't in his way, he didn't barge by him simply because it was his team mate in front of him, anyone else and he would have just gone for it as he did when he and Lorenzo came together a few races back. He knows he has to make a clean move on his team mate, if he doesn't the team will make him sorry for it, so with Dani he has to be that bit more careful. I truly believe that is what I saw him doing.





Of course that is a matter of opinion and that's mine, I'm not saying you're wrong, just we don't agree on it, you and Phill see it in a different way is all.




Good takes on the subject everyone.





Lyria I agree with you for the most part up until the bolded statement. I don't think marquez had that much more of a pace than pedro to have caught up to lorenzo. Marq did show a bit of restraint IMO, but he was not that much faster than Pedro. In fact, I think that if marq did pass pedro in those last laps, dani would have stayed with him for the most part. Too bad tho, because that was the most exciting part of the race and it would have made the end more exciting.








Also, Bautista said he was being held up, anyone else read this? Which is why he pulls these dumbass moves, anyone else think he is jumping the gun a bit? He doesnt even make it a lap.
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June 17th, 2013, 10:15 AM   #98
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thedeal
Quote:
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Lyria i agree and will go further, he was so obviously faster than Danny but failed to pass i am convinced he is under team orders and will help Danny win the title,the sham of a race on sunday between the team mates was so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it,HRC have done this before (Taddy/Mick) and to be honest it sucks,unless Danny has a crash or a very bad day Mark will not go for the win,i fully expect to get a shit fest for this but lets look at it at the end of the season.

HRC did deploy Okada but Mick hardly needed the buffer. Actually, you'll find that today the contrary is true....and more characteristic of Ducati. I remember Xaus was given team orders and at Imola told to directly to ride shotgun to Bayliss...he shot his bolt too early and couldn't match the pace of either Colin or Troy so it was in the event a fairly pointless plan. Colin definitely was under instructions to ride shotgun for Vale on several occasions at Yamaha and also for Sete at Gresini. Dani's brief at Valencia '06 was to assist Nicky. That said HRC don't favour what would be a rider centric approach - it's the machine that counts remember?...unless it goes right down to the wire between Jorge and Dani I can't see it happening.





The premise that after five races such a dictat would be made, even by HRC....after FIVE races is preposterous. That Marc's rookie year is all about shielding Pedrosa is utterly ludicrous. Sorry.





I say again - Marc was quicker than Dani in spurts and putting in faster lap times throughout stages of the race - I'll have to see the comparative sector split times between he and Dani. But Deal - you know this sport well...you can be visibly faster than the guy in front as Marc was, but ultimately making that pass stick against one such as Dani, on a circuit as technical as Catalunya in this class, requires great finesse...which as I've said Marc is finding out fast.





Riding shotgun? he almost put a bullet in the back of Dani's head...right now, Dani is a higher calibre.





If your assumption is correct then far from beating Pedrosa in an out and out battle, we are therefore unlikely to see him attempt to so much as pass him for the rest of the season.
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June 17th, 2013, 10:53 AM   #99
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Arrabi, agree about Catalunya 09 (and I've said as much though vastly less eloquent); but i humbly submit, its the difference between Marc & VR that I'd like to point out. Where as VR has no problem making contact (see Catalunya 09 again), Rossi still attempts these moves with more precision (as u said). Perhaps 08 was the last time VR would have been willing to make such criminal barging typical of Jerez 05. Where Marc is still at the barging stage. Im saying Marc's surgical tools are blunt instruments (Jerez on Lorenzo) where as VR have becoming increasingly of the knife's edge variety.





Im not so sure MM was thinking at Jerez this year, 'this is a slow corner and so less risk'. I'll add, i humbly submit the supposed "wide open gap" by Lorenzo's trajectory has been used more for the purpose of justifying Marc's move rather than what actually existed (if executing a pass properly is considered). The point im trying to make, which Lyria described in her observation, is that Marc's attempts didnt seem of the 'usual' variety I've come to expect from him. Which I admit, I hadnt detected immediately given Marc's more 'measured' attempts this race until Lyra pointed it out. My first reaction was, are u kidding "tip toeing" no way, he tried to take DP out. But I thought about it a bit more and concluded Lyria does have a point, though with the caveat that no classic "team orders" were in place (as HRC are not in the custom, see Estoril 06). In Lyras defense, being fairly new to MotoGP vs F1 (where team orders are shocking to me) perhaps she is not familiar with HRC's custom of not employing such "team tactic". But she did detect a more 'measured' race tactic by Marquez. Perhaps we can chalk this up to my personal bias on Marquez. I just figure had it not been a teammate but a more 'proper' rival like Lorenzo, that he wouldn't have gave much thought to a riskier attempt.
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June 17th, 2013, 11:11 AM   #100
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I honestly think MM has matured. He felt a little heat at Jerez, when he wasn't even in the wrong. No matter what he says, he intends to win the championship this year and doesn't want any asterisk.





And...Bautista has an inferiororitycomplex that is making him push stupid hard. He's likely justified, as he won't havethat ride next year.





BTW, I finally posted pics from Austin. Sadly, only a few good ones and a cloudy pic of curve.


http://powerslide.net/forum/index.ph...-party/page-20
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