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February 1st, 2012, 08:38 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the current GP riders. Just 1-10, after that, they are interchangeable pieces . Pedro has been on the best equipment for 2 of his 6 years in the series, and one of those was his rookie year. Is he better than Rossi, hell no, but i do believe he is # 4 , right behind him, and ahead of Spies. Overall, last year looked ok on paper for Spies, but considering the equipment it was sub par. Ben needs a statement year, and on the new bikes, i think he may give us one. What would be a statement year is the question.
I speculate Pedro is 6-7ish, though its very difficult to know where he belongs given he has been on the best and very near it all 6 years (I disagree 2 out of 6), the parity between Yamaha and Honda has been very close. On top of the fact he's controlled the entire development direction all 6 years. I'd be willing to bet if he spent his time on a Duc, he'd have zero wins, if he were at Yamaha, he would have lost his seat by now (given this thread regarding Spies ' seat after one fucking year). I think Pedro's record is inflated based on having it all his way. We argee that he is one of the best, but look at the lesson from Depuniet jumping on Baustista's bike at Valencia's test. Depuniet has been a bit mired, but then again, on the rare occasion he had a decent bike, he did well. I think Pedro would have quickly gone the way of Melandri, that is to say, his confidence would have diminished if his tenure in MotoGP wasn't so sheltered. I mention all this to point out that the sheltered existence of Pedro has made us believe he's better than we think, but that's only if we ignore many lesson learned from 2011. Pedro is certainly on the top rung of world class riders, but I don't consider him an "alien" (I think the only person deserving of that is Stoner). Again, all speculation, but if we are going to ignore the lesson of 2011, then we must also say Stoner was the 4-5th best rider from 08-2010, and God knows you are not prepared to call him that now would you? That is to say, what you ride counts for a lot. Btw, no Stoner on the Honda would have made the HRC driven 800 experiment a complete and utter failure in terms of titles. Did Pedro, who formula and bike was designed with him specifically in mind pan out? Zilch. And I'd bet the farm he won't win the title in 2012 either.
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February 1st, 2012, 10:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
I speculate Pedro is 6-7ish, though its very difficult to know where he belongs given he has been on the best and very near it all 6 years (I disagree 2 out of 6), the parity between Yamaha and Honda has been very close. On top of the fact he's controlled the entire development direction all 6 years. I'd be willing to bet if he spent his time on a Duc, he'd have zero wins, if he were at Yamaha, he would have lost his seat by now (given this thread regarding Spies ' seat after one fucking year). I think Pedro's record is inflated based on having it all his way. We argee that he is one of the best, but look at the lesson from Depuniet jumping on Baustista's bike at Valencia's test. Depuniet has been a bit mired, but then again, on the rare occasion he had a decent bike, he did well. I think Pedro would have quickly gone the way of Melandri, that is to say, his confidence would have diminished if his tenure in MotoGP wasn't so sheltered. I mention all this to point out that the sheltered existence of Pedro has made us believe he's better than we think, but that's only if we ignore many lesson learned from 2011. Pedro is certainly on the top rung of world class riders, but I don't consider him an "alien" (I think the only person deserving of that is Stoner). Again, all speculation, but if we are going to ignore the lesson of 2011, then we must also say Stoner was the 4-5th best rider from 08-2010, and God knows you are not prepared to call him that now would you? That is to say, what you ride counts for a lot. Btw, no Stoner on the Honda would have made the HRC driven 800 experiment a complete and utter failure in terms of titles. Did Pedro, who formula and bike was designed with him specifically in mind pan out? Zilch. And I'd bet the farm he won't win the title in 2012 either.
Ok, lets assume there has been parity for the last 6 years between Honda and Yamaha, who besides the obvious number 1 Stoner, 2 Lorenzo, 3 Rossi. do you rank ahead of Pedrosa.. Nicky has that all important title to his name, but can you look at the numbers when they were teammates and say he is better, Spies numbers do not indicate he is better, and Dovi has proven without doubt that he is not. I think Pedrosa has had the misfortune of coming along during the most talent laden era in the history of the sport, and has still managed to average 3rd place finish in the championship for the 6 years he has been around. Will he win the title in 2012, odds say no, but he has the potential to win it. Until Spies beats him on the track, im not going to say he is better than Pedrosa
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February 1st, 2012, 11:18 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
Ok, lets assume there has been parity for the last 6 years between Honda and Yamaha, who besides the obvious number 1 Stoner, 2 Lorenzo, 3 Rossi. do you rank ahead of Pedrosa.. Nicky has that all important title to his name, but can you look at the numbers when they were teammates and say he is better, Spies numbers do not indicate he is better, and Dovi has proven without doubt that he is not. I think Pedrosa has had the misfortune of coming along during the most talent laden era in the history of the sport, and has still managed to average 3rd place finish in the championship for the 6 years he has been around. Will he win the title in 2012, odds say no, but he has the potential to win it. Until Spies beats him on the track, im not going to say he is better than Pedrosa


Ok, we are both speculating and extrapolating, right? I just think given Pedro having it all his way, he has not delivered, and as it pertains to his status, I think its inflated. There is another guy who had it all his way, Rossi, and he did deliver. So if Yama gonna put Spies on notice, I figure I'd give a bit of context and contrast with another factory rider like Pedro whos seat has remained solid despite not delivering much other than hype.
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February 1st, 2012, 11:33 AM   #34
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In the MotoGP DVD called 'Road to Glory' they tell the story of the development of the current riders from when they were kids up to when they got into MotoGP. I found it interesting that Pedrosa was never considered a 'winner' during his childhood years. Just like now he had his odd wins but never dominated. Lorenzo on the other hand was always considered the bench mark from when he was just a kid right through all the different forms of racing.



I agree that Pedrosa has been manufactured in that he has had a 'silver spoon' run in GP's since 125's. Had he been given just a plain old spoon then quite possibly he would not be considered the 4th best rider in GP.
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February 1st, 2012, 12:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
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'Road to Glory'
Not to mention that we learned a soft sabotage, at very least, keeping Pedro's best competition at bay while in the junior support class. Pedro's success in 250s may have been an entirely different story had Stoner not been "helped" by Puig to KTM...
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February 1st, 2012, 12:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
Not to mention that we learned a soft sabotage, at very least, keeping Pedro's best competition at bay while in the junior support class. Pedro's success in 250s may have been an entirely different story had Stoner not been "helped" by Puig to KTM...


He is good at "helping" isn't he. Didn't he "help" Hayden with his path to Ducati?
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February 1st, 2012, 01:01 PM   #37
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He is good at "helping" isn't he. Didn't he "help" Hayden with his path to Ducati?
Yes.
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February 1st, 2012, 01:19 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
I just think given Pedro having it all his way, he has not delivered,


Fuck me Swinging!!



Pedro since 2006 15 wins



Hayden since 2003!! 3 wins !!!





You are the last person in the world with any cred. to be able to say Pedro has not delivered



Get real for 3 milliseconds of your life Jumkie.



Enough verbal diarrhea!!
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February 1st, 2012, 01:43 PM   #39
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IMO, this is all about Lin Jarvis playing games, no more and no less as for Spies position to be genuinely threatened then there is likel a decision already made or great pressure being applied from sources to changet he makeup in the team (ie. does Dovi come with big $?)



Spies has perfromed acceptably well (again, IMO) for a rider who has not had a large level of international experience nor time on the MGP scene. His performances have been during his tenure better than many a rider whom had a longer career in the paddock,.



No, for mine, if this is a serious comment by Jarvis and is to be taken at face value then there woudl seem to be ulterior motives as Spies has achieved a great deal within teh sport during his short time and so to make these utterances are for a reason.









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February 1st, 2012, 04:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by povol View Post
Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the current GP riders. Just 1-10, after that, they are interchangeable pieces . Pedro has been on the best equipment for 2 of his 6 years in the series, and one of those was his rookie year. Is he better than Rossi, hell no, but i do believe he is # 4 , right behind him, and ahead of Spies. Overall, last year looked ok on paper for Spies, but considering the equipment it was sub par. Ben needs a statement year, and on the new bikes, i think he may give us one. What would be a statement year is the question.




1. Stoner

2. Rossi

3. Lorenzo

4. Pedrosa

5. Spies

6. Dovisioso

7. Bautista

8. Hayden

9. Edwards

10. De Puniet

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