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November 25th, 2010, 09:04 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
Your pissing in the wind my friend, they will NEVER NEVER see the inequities when it comes to Rossi. Their only defense is, he earned it.
Whilst he may have benefited, I can't see how rossi can be blamed for michelin's long term practices, and he did win the 2009 championship fairly handily with everyone on a control tyre. It could also be argued (and has been by j4rno) that the control tyre now works against him because it suits jorge better. My issue would be if stoner was denied the tyre he won with in 2007 as lex has postulated particularly if this was due to political machinations.



I would agree with you to the extent that nobody seemed concerned about tyre advantages until it was stoner/ducati that appeared to have one.
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November 26th, 2010, 12:04 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Jumkie View Post
Yes, so you can imagine the effect it would have it one or two of its contestants had a and advantage or disadvantage written into the contest before it even starts. That what it meant for Hayden when he was forced to race with a bike not designed or developed for him, and that's what it meant when Dorna coerced that Rossi should be on Bstones while detrimentally allowing others to ride in what was perceived to be inferior equipment. And for years, when under the approval of the governing body, certain riders were given superior tires for race day.


Yes, it is a negative effect to be in a 'losing' position before you have even started. That is part of the game, and always has been. Just like starting a race on a Suzuki means you pretty much aren't going to win. That is part of the game, and is why i always say in response you your insistance that the results are not a pure reflection of a riders ability that there is a difference between being the best at riding motorcycles and being the best motorcycle racer. There will always be a difference unless the riders race in a spec series and even then the winner is only the best at riding motorcycles in that context, as they may get on with that particular bike/tyre/track combination better than the others. Assigning one rider as a number 1 or giving someone superior equipment is the prerogative of the equipment suppliers to satisfy their competative and commercial intentions. Things are a little differnt when it comes to the governing body and organizers interfering in the competition to satisfy the commercial requirements of the sport itself, i think a line is being crossed because i don't feel it is their place to manipulate the competition from their position. With the Bridgestone thing (which is the most significant example i can think of), the control tyre was a necessary result as soon as they had given Rossi tyres that were not available to others (if that is in fact what happened).
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November 26th, 2010, 11:15 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by povol View Post
Your pissing in the wind my friend, they will NEVER NEVER see the inequities when it comes to Rossi. Their only defense is, he earned it.




Actually Pov he has a number of things in his bow he hasnt earned but the results in history dont lie & when you perform well & get results then your influence will grow with your employer. As ive said before everyone who has won that title has deserved it - end of story. Granted i think some riders have had a bit of luck in being noticed & this is where i think Nicky has been particularly unlucky as i think he like Depuniet is very underrated. I think if he sticks with it at Ducati they WILL reward him, he is THE hardest worker on the grid - something Rossi can definatly learn from him!



We can deliberate to the end of time with hignsight but advantage, no advantage, most of them have had this or that & used whatever influence they can to get what they see that they need to be able to win, they are competitors after all.



I think its just a case of Rossi & Stoner in particular have made the best use of the advantages that have came their way.
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November 26th, 2010, 12:20 PM   #84
 
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Originally Posted by johnnyvvc View Post
Actually Pov he has a number of things in his bow he hasnt earned but the results in history dont lie & when you perform well & get results then your influence will grow with your employer. As ive said before everyone who has won that title has deserved it - end of story. Granted i think some riders have had a bit of luck in being noticed & this is where i think Nicky has been particularly unlucky as i think he like Depuniet is very underrated. I think if he sticks with it at Ducati they WILL reward him, he is THE hardest worker on the grid - something Rossi can definatly learn from him!



We can deliberate to the end of time with hignsight but advantage, no advantage, most of them have had this or that & used whatever influence they can to get what they see that they need to be able to win, they are competitors after all.



I think its just a case of Rossi & Stoner in particular have made the best use of the advantages that have came their way.


Couple of things, why do you believe that Rossi doesn't work extremely hard? Not bopping, I have always understood from years and years ago that Rossi worked his arse off. Maybe that's wrong so if it is, please someone enlighten me - evidence would be good.



I think you can add lorenzo to the list of making best use of advantages now as well.
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November 26th, 2010, 12:33 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by michaelm View Post
I don't quite follow your line of argument; I don't see how the existence of a conspiracy to favour nicky hayden would make a conspiracy/conspiracies to favour valentino rossi less likely, not that I am arguing the latter on this thread at least.



As johnny has already posted hayden didn't exactly come from nowhere, he was the reigning ama championship, and signing ama champions has resulted in some success historically, including nicky's recruitment actually since as I recall nicky won a world championship for honda, their only one in the last 7 years. Perhaps honda should ask dorna to foist more riders on them. I think nicky also had strong backing from american honda, with the usa being an important market.



There is no need to invoke back room deals where dorna is concerned in this context anyway, since they very openly try to influence the national variety on the grid ; they partially funded stoner's entry into motogp with lcr in 2006.
So your denying that Honda USA had a very large say in who rossi's factory teamate was to be in 2003. It's very simple, and I'm not directing this at you at all, but many here love their conspriacy theories about all sorts of advantages and disadvantages for certain riders and being gifted the best ride in motogp I consider to be a fair advantage.



Just as is with Cal crutchlow, not even a superbike champ,But at least in the world series, Ben spies was the world champ, Nicky was the domestic champ-straight onto a factory ride. Anyway let's just get back to the rossi conspiracys, that's how most seem to like it.
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November 26th, 2010, 12:58 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by woody996 View Post
Couple of things, why do you believe that Rossi doesn't work extremely hard? Not bopping, I have always understood from years and years ago that Rossi worked his arse off. Maybe that's wrong so if it is, please someone enlighten me - evidence would be good.



I think you can add lorenzo to the list of making best use of advantages now as well.


Sure Wood, while Nicky, DePuniet & to some extent this season Lorenzo (credit where it is due), are out at the start of every session getting as much time in the seat as possible where Rossi comes out with barely half the session left, even at times when his side of the garage hasnt really improved and provided him with a package to fight for the win. Sure i agree that Rossi & Burgess are the masters when it comes to finding something at the very last minute like in the morning warmup & will always be in there around the win r podium. Ive just thought a number of times over the past few years that he should get his arse out there & sort the settings out, especially as the young guns are breathing down his neck getting closer & closer, a lseeon to learn fomr Nicky.
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November 26th, 2010, 01:32 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
Pedrosa has Puig in his corner, that's how he got the switch done. By that time Bridgestone was already announced as the sole tyre supplier for 09.

They got the switch done so they could get a head start on all the other Michelin riders who had to make the switch the following year. Smart of them? Yes absolutely. Fair? No, definitely not.

These 2 riders got to switch tyre manufacturers without their teams doing so. No other rider whether at the front or not, would have got that pushed through for them. So the part I bolded in your statement to me is completely & utterly wrong.

I think if you can't see there are more than one set of rules for different riders then you have blinders on to the world my friend.







The tyres were only 1 part of the problem for Rossi in 07.

Besides Stoner's Ducati, he still easily beat every other Bridgestone rider in the championship easily.

Yes there were problem circuits for Michelin where a podium was not possible like Laguna Seca & Turkey, but they also had a qualifying advantage with their soft tyre.

Yamaha getting their lack of top speed issues sorted was more than anything the reason Vale was able to win the title back in 08. I think the bike was already the best turning bike even in 07, but if you get blown away down the straight it makes it very tough.

Having said that, every other Ducati rider still had the same advantage Casey did, and were unable to get the results he achieved.




That's your opinion about this situation, anyway i do believe They will do the same for Stoner and Lorenzo and even a few others, but especially those 2 are next to Rossi and Pedrosa. that's what i mean with theyr taking care of their business. Most money comes in motogp because of these 4 riders and anyone of aliens who leaves motogp, he will hurt their business.



Tires were not Rossi's only problem, i mentioned that because all the attention it got, but anyway what i remember, in 2008 he didn't lose his advantages in the last few laps of a race, while in 2007 he had that problem a few times. I think in 2008 Rossi was less worry about his tires and that helped him mentally.
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November 26th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Talpa View Post
Yes, and dually noted that the debate as to how Nicky got the official factory ride on the best bike in the world next to Rossi in the first place doesn't seem to come up much, especially with the conspiracy champions that exist here, probably the biggest back room deal ever............


I had never looked at it this way, this is a a big clue for a great conspiracy theory, and it really could be true too. Will the conspiracy masters take a look at this and give it a try?
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November 26th, 2010, 02:12 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyvvc View Post
You are wrong here Frizz!!



Firstly Rossi changed tyres at the end of the season when he just got his arse handed to him with no increrase in performance likely so no way to win, there is nothing wrong with that!

So you would stay on equipment that you had no chance of winning on would you, either a fool or a liar me thinks.




I agree that just like Pedrosa he used his influence to get what he wanted but he is a competitor just like them all, they all want to win & to do so they need the equipement to enable them to win.


+ I believe if Rossi/Yamaha at that moment even had a contract with Micheline, they had enough money to buy themselves out of that contract before 2008, but in the case of Pedrosa it wasn't only about his/Honda contract with the tire company, but also breaking a rule in the championship, for changing his tires in the middle of 2008 season (or at least i expect this to be a rule in motogp), and that should have been canceled by Dorna or whoever was responssible for defending of the rules. and to think no team complained and they didn't even take his points off(points scored on micheline tires).

I remember even Lorenzo was talking about a plan for tire change in the end of that year, and all of these things made the Dorna/fim oblige to go with the single tire.
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November 26th, 2010, 02:21 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyvvc View Post
I think you will find Nicky earnt his place on the GP grid as much as anybody has, if you dont like it tough. He came from a similar background to Spies beatign down on guys in the national championchips to get noticed by the top dogs.


I think the point was; if you want to see conpiracy, you can see it where ever you want.

About him earning his place in motogp or not, he is there and that's what counts in the end.
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